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Old Sep 13, 2001, 11:14 AM
Ascended Master
Sparky Paul's Avatar
Palmdale, CA
Joined Oct 2000
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Religious belief

Fundamental Islamics are as fervently (actually obviously more
fervently) devoted to their
own particular perversion of the basic religion as any Christian
fundamentalist.
Aberrations to the basic concepts exist in all religions, as with
political beliefs.
The diety in Christianity, Judaism, and Islam is the SAME diety! Only the name is spelled differently.
The core religions are identical.
The "christians" that bomb abortion centers, shoot (from ambush)
doctors, etc. under the
concept of "right to life" are as deluded as any of these Islamics. But
less eager to accept the
consequences..
Mainstream Islam as with mainstream Christianity does not support nor
condone murder. It's
just not done. Suicide is condemned just as with Christianity.
But the "disaffected" are easily conned into acts of extreme stupidity
by those who themselves
are deluded. We see this every Sunday on tv. Televangelists are cut from
the same cloth of deceit
as any mullah or ayatollah who incites his victims to violence.
The tv guys do it for money and power.
.
Religion of any sort is repugnant to me!
.
All of it is based on human ego.. a bizarre concept that "life" somehow
continues after death, and
is some sort of a "reward" for performing good or demeaning acts during
the actual life opportunity.
We each are easily convinced we are too magnificent a "creation" to
simply vanish at death, and will
lock onto whatever cockamamie idea that promises something more.
Heaven, Paradise, Nirvana, Valhalla.. none of this is real.
It's what we do here when we can do it that counts, if only to make life
better for those around us.
Expecting some supernatural fantasty to observe this and "save" us is
moon-struck foolishness.
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Old Sep 13, 2001, 11:21 AM
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YOU ARE FULL OF BULL****. I'D LIKE TO SEE YOUR DISBELIEF WHEN YOU ARE BEING JUDGED BY GOD FOR YOUR ACTIONS AND BELIEFS! EVERYONE WILL BE JUDGED, DON'T THINK BECAUSE YOU DON'T BELIEVE, IT DOESN'T EXIST!
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Old Sep 13, 2001, 12:00 PM
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Okemos, Michigan
Joined Feb 2001
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Those who truely believe in Judeo-christian values don't believe in violence. Nor does many other religous groups believe in violence in general. There are those who break off from main stream religions and form a small isolated subculture. Those who do can sometimes be called extremists when their world view is so different than the majority that they feel they need to change it in unpositive ways like violence.

You can not blame religion itself for the problem. You can blame the individuals who chose to follow creeds and idicts that are outside the majority. Sometimes there are pressures within religous groups to take a stance on a subject and act on it.

Above all, most if not all, religions do not advocate violence.

-- Sean
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Old Sep 13, 2001, 12:19 PM
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Paul,

Quote:
Religion of any sort is repugnant to me!
Does that include humanism? Atheism? These are religions. Or maybe you mean that you find any "theistic" religion to be repugnant.

Are you ready to say right now that everyone who believes in any kind of creator of the universe has a repugnant belief? You are so certain that the universe sprang from nothing that any other concept of how it came about is completely repugnant?

Most likely the real concern you have is about the effect of religion. But how much of this effect is actual and how much of it is brewed up only in your mind?

I am a Christian Fundamentalist. What does the word "fundamentalist" mean to you, exactly? All that the word means is that I believe the bible to be accurate. But to you it must mean somehow that I condone killing abortion doctors. Yet I think that anyone who takes the bible seriously should be against that very practice.

Quote:
The core religions are identical.
No, sir, they are not. Ironically, you can only know this if you use the brain that God gave you.

Quote:
a bizarre concept that "life" somehow
continues after death, and
is some sort of a "reward" for performing good or demeaning acts during
the actual life opportunity.
Thats not even what Christians believe.

Christ taught that no one is good. Christians believe that we are rescued from our sins by a God who is good. That is why we are kind to our enemies. Because we do not believe that we are better than them.

Though your words frustrate me, I remember a time in my past when I said the very same things. For that reason, I do not feel anger toward you. If you came at me with a club I would still forgive you because I would know that "there but for the grace of God" I could be just as full of hate as you are.

Now I ask you: what on earth do you have to fear from me? What have I done to anger you? Is it that I believe husbands should be faithful to their wives? Is it because I am against lying?

Or is it because you can't tell the difference between someone who thinks abortion is wrong and someone who thinks we should murder abortionists? Your problem isn't with me. Your problem is that you have misplaced your aggression.

Quote:
Televangelists are cut from
the same cloth of deceit
as any mullah or ayatollah who incites his victims to violence.
Thats stupid.

Quote:
It's what we do here when we can do it that counts, if only to make life
better for those around us.
Stalin and Hitler worked under that assumption.

What on earth do you think you are helping at a time like this, Paul? Are you seriously trying to tell everyone that the people who attacked NY are ideologically the same as people like me? That is just as stupid as saying that all German people are like Hitler, or that all atheists are like Stalin.

If you want to attack religion as a concept then you are going to need a great deal more ammunition than what you are providing here. Thousands of years of history, including millions of man-hours of study in philosophy and theology, cannot be trumped by comments like "religion causes evil".

You may think you are an independent thinker because you hate religion, but let me tell you that it takes far more perserverence and independence to believe what I believe. I am under continual assault from people who disagree with me. I meet them with respect and tolerance. I take the high road as often as possible. I study incessantly to learn history, philosophy, theology, science, and the beliefs of people I disagree with, both to test my own beliefs and to give me resources to rely on when I am disagreed with. Its way easier to be like you and sit back with no burden of proof and just slam beliefs that you don't even understand. I wish it could be so easy for me at times.

Jim
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Old Sep 13, 2001, 12:49 PM
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Tucson, AZ, USA
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Right on Sparky telling it like it is will draw a lot of flamers but that doesn't change the fact that you are RIGHT

Jim
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Old Sep 13, 2001, 12:54 PM
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Palmdale, CA
Joined Oct 2000
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"Those who truely believe in Judeo-christian values don't believe in violence. Nor does many other religous groups believe in violence in general. There are those who break off from main stream religions and form a small isolated subculture. Those who do can sometimes be called extremists when their world view is so different than the majority that they feel they need to change it in unpositive ways like violence.

You can not blame religion itself for the problem. You can blame the individuals who chose to follow creeds and idicts that are outside the majority. Sometimes there are pressures within religous groups to take a stance on a subject and act on it.

Above all, most if not all, religions do not advocate violence.

-- Sean"
"Those who truely believe in Judeo-christian values don't believe in violence."
Sadly, this is just plain head-in-the-sand..
Those who engage in violence because of a religious conviction -truly- believe their
actions are sanctioned by "X".
Why would someone will an entire life ahead of him wrap explosives around himself and
blow himself up.. taking as many others with him as he can? He is WORSHIPPING his diety.
.
The splinter groups have every reason to believe they are right, and the religion they
have left is wrong. How can you say anything else?
.
There is little rationality when it comes to religious belief. ANYTHING can and has been worshipped as THE diety thru mankind's history. And supported with at least as much fervor
as we saw on Tuesday.
.
Not too long ago if you appended "for thine is the kingdom and the power and the glory.."
to the Lord's Prayer.. In Spain, you would die under excruciating circumstances. IF you
DIDN'T add that phrase to the SAME prayer in England, you would die under excruciating circumstances.
Both sides "truly believing in Judeo-christian values".
Both can't be right. Both certainly CAN be wrong!
And today, the phrase which resulted in so much suffering is part of the Lord's Prayer in Spain and other Catholic countries. So much for executing and enduring for one's faith.
.
I was taught that eating meat on Friday was a mortal sin. Damned to Hell! No appeal.
How many people died in fear because they had eaten meat, believing that? People were actually executed for that crime!
Today... it doesn't apply!
How can that be?
It makes NO sense at all!
Religious "values" are subject, as with treason, to the date of the situation.
Bad yesterday, OK today.
Physically, the world doesn't work that way. Facts don't change according to date or belief as to what a fact is. (I see an opening here... <g>)
When it comes to life and death, imposed from without, perhaps something a bit more concrete than a religious conviction is needed?
As many people in the world exist outside any religion, and exist quite well and morally/ethically, religion is more of a crutch to those whose need to be told how behave, than anything else.
And as such, it is easily suborned to the personal whim of the authorities in religion.
.
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Old Sep 13, 2001, 01:18 PM
Human Like You
NewbieX's Avatar
Colorado
Joined Feb 2001
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I have to agree with Sparky P to some extent, although I realize that people would still do irrational things in the absence of organized religion. Where is Gerald and his extensive list of Christian Holy Wars that stopped JBourke's indignation in it's tracks a few months ago? Last time we decided to discuss the negative aspects of religion.

I guess a just have a problem with any belief system that makes this life, this earth, these days, the people I know and love and the world I can see and touch, tells me that it is insignificant and (I think) lies to me about the afterlife.

What's the deal with Christians wanting to execute people anyway? By your own admission, all the murderer has to do is take Jesus as his savior and by murdering him we've just sent him to everlasting life in heaven? That's so retarded.

I'd like to make more points and be eloquent and all that, but arguing just seems so pointless and divisive and never gets anywhere. We basicaly inherit our beliefs, just like I've got brown eyes and some joe who thinks I'm an idiot has blue eyes.
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Old Sep 13, 2001, 02:03 PM
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Buran's Avatar
Huntington Beach
Joined Aug 2000
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Sparky:
Wow, now you've done it. The sky is gonna fall now.

I agree with much of what you wrote. However, I don't think religion is based as much on ego as it is on power. What is power? To me it is property and money; wealth and influence. Religion was created by people to serve those people. Human history is filled with examples of abuses of humanity in the name of religion. All of them (I don't consider Buddhism a religion. It's more of a philosophy). I also find it hard to understand how people can practice a religious faith BLINDLY. Thatís what they do. Show me proof there is a christian god, a allah, any creator or supreme being, and I will believe. Thatís one of the reason most religions indoctrinate children at so young an age. Get them in when they are young and naive. And lets not get started on the TV jerks who prey on the weak and frail.

OK guys, I don't hate religion or religious people. I think some people need religion. We live in a country that respects and tolerates religion. I do also so long as these people pretty much keep it to themselves. I am polite to missionaries, but wish some would not be so persistent; it's not good for their cause.

As for recent events, I donít see much difference between those terrorists and the christian freaks who bomb abortion clinics and kill doctors who perform them. Is there a difference in the magnitude of destruction? Yes. But I don't see a lot of difference in their moral and ethical values. BTW, I am an atheist, but believe abortion is killing. It's simple to me. If you don't kill the person in the womb, they will be born a person. No brainer. Bombing abortion clinics and killing their doctors is terrorism. This country is a democracy. If the majority of it's citizens favor abortion, that the way it is. Besides, these people having the abortions have to live withselves. I know some women who came to regret it later in their lives. I also attended a christian school for 6 years as a youth and attended church and Sunday school. I didn't buy it then and certainly don't now.

Oh gosh. I think I've written enough.
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Old Sep 13, 2001, 02:12 PM
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Mark Sanders's Avatar
Windsor, UK
Joined Jun 2001
299 Posts
Agreed.
I'd add; live and let live - a little empathy goes a long way.
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Old Sep 13, 2001, 02:14 PM
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Sparky Paul's Avatar
Palmdale, CA
Joined Oct 2000
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"Paul,

'Religion of any sort is repugnant to me!PJB'
.
"Does that include humanism? Atheism? These are religions. Or maybe you mean that you find any "theistic" religion to be repugnant. "
I won't debate "-isms"...
.
Religion comes to each person thru each person.
The "revealed religions" are quite susceptible to examination in particular. The "revealer"
is a person. Who claims "X" has communicated directly to him. Abraham, the prophets, Christ,
Mohammed, Joseph Smith, Jim Bakker, L. Ron Hubbard..
And these persons are the sole source of the "truth".. as they imagine it.
.
In the case of the last 4, who are historical figures, it is relatively simple to discern
the human source. "I only follow what is revealed to me." Koran V1:50
"We chose you as Our apostle." Koran, XLVIII:2
In other words, he heard voices in his head.
We medicate people for that today.
.
The Book of Mormom is concerned with the pre-Columbian civilizations from 2200 BC to
500 AD. There is not ONE single artifact that supports this. The "reformed Egyptian" the book was written in was "revealed" to Smith, by his own words. There is no credible
artifact containing anything remotely Egyptian which supports this in pre-Columbian America.
.
Jim Bakker talked to God daily. I saw him say this! I think God forgot to tell Jim that
Bubba was waiting for him at that Federal pen..
.
L. Ron wrote science fiction.
.
With these real examples of the sources for religious thought, why presume the figures
in the murky past were any different?
Father Abraham would have been arrested today for announcing he was going to sacrifice his son... The prophets.. fairy tales and moral sagas, assembled way after the fact. And edited
to fit the situation.
.

"Are you ready to say right now that everyone who believes in any kind of creator of the universe has a repugnant belief? You are so certain that the universe sprang from nothing that any other concept of how it came about is completely repugnant? "
.
Anyone who practices the belief of a creator who wishes to force that belief on me is repugnant.
.
"Most likely the real concern you have is about the effect of religion. But how much of this effect is actual and how much of it is brewed up only in your mind? "
Religion can only be recognized thru its effects. There's both physical and psychical effects due to it. The physical we saw Tuesday. The psychical we experience thru our
moral and ethical behaviors. The belief that "sin" is monitored and the errors accumulated
to be addressed after death is a tremendous hold on the individual.
.
"I am a Christian Fundamentalist. What does the word "fundamentalist" mean to you, exactly?"
A fundamentalist to me seems to regress to the primitive beginnings of his religion, when myth and superstition and general ignorance of the world and the way it operates existed.
As civilization progresses, the errors in these fundamental beliefs become apparent, and accepting them is -repugnant- to those who wish the world back to those simpler times.
.

" All that the word means is that I believe the bible to be accurate."
The Bible is not "accurate" in that everything in it is fact. Such as Exodus. Never happened! The Bible is a compilation of Middle Eastern fables and myths, passed down
verbally thru the centuries, and not compiled into a book until 700 BC or so. As the
stories were subject to the personal interpretations of the tellers for centuries.. i.e.
the Flood.. it cannot be said to be accurate in most of the "history" it contains.
.
" But to you it must mean somehow that I condone killing abortion doctors."
Nope. Didn't say that.
.
" Yet I think that anyone who takes the bible seriously should be against that very practice. "
"Vengance is Mine.." is used by those who "take the Bible seriously" to rationalize their
excesses.

"quote:The core religions are identical. PJB"
" No, sir, they are not. Ironically, you can only know this if you use the brain that God gave you. "
The Koran contains parts of the Old Testament, Talmud, Apochrypha.. Abraham, Moses, Christ
are considered to be Mohammed's prophetic predecessors..
.
"quote: a bizarre concept that "life" somehow continues after death, and is some sort of a "reward" for performing good or demeaning acts during the actual life opportunity.:PJB "
"Thats not even what Christians believe."
I suspect you take exception to "demeaning".. Prostrating one's self to some supernatural
fanstasy is demeaning to me.
.
"Christ taught that no one is good."
John Calvin said that! I certainly never encountered it as a Catholic!
.
" Christians believe that we are rescued from our sins by a God who is good. That is why we are kind to our enemies."
The history of Christianity is more bloody than even the Mongol hordes.. and much longer lasting.
.
"Because we do not believe that we are better than them. "
Not true. Born-agains are particularly offensive in their attitude that they are "saved".


[end of part 1]
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Old Sep 13, 2001, 04:37 PM
Dude, where's My Plane?
JasonJ's Avatar
Green Lane PA USA
Joined Mar 2001
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I can think of NO other one thing that has led to more death, hate, war, and destruction over the course of history than religion. ALL wars have either started or been fought under the perverse veil of religion.

History shows again and again that religion no matter how nobel in origin is manipulated to serve evil.

What great moments in history can be attributed to religion that out weigh the attrocities?

I see the slipping away of religion in this contry one of the better parts of the last centry, one less reason to be diffrent.

Often laque of religion is sited when people do random acts of meaningless violence. It seems religion is THE reason for not so random acts of "meaningfull" violence.

I dont find religion repulsive nor do I think the followers wrong or sick, I personaly think there heart is or was in the right place but often misguided or easaly misguided.

Religion is not inherited, its taught. If there was no one to teach it to you, you would not know of it. Likewise, if it was taught to you wrong, you would know it wrong. I find it very hard to belive that it was tought correctly by everyone over the course of 2000 years or more in countless languages with people who had countless agendas over hundreds of life times. The fact that there are so many variations of so many diffrent religions makes that VERY apparent to me.


My 2 / 100 of a buck.
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Old Sep 13, 2001, 06:01 PM
Single-task at best...
tim hooper's Avatar
Telford, UK
Joined Feb 2000
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Quote:
Originally posted by JasonJ
I can think of NO other one thing that has led to more death, hate, war, and destruction over the course of history than religion.
I'll second that proposal.

tim
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Old Sep 13, 2001, 06:32 PM
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United States, OR, Corvallis
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Quote:
Where is Gerald and his extensive list of Christian Holy Wars that stopped JBourke's indignation in it's tracks a few months ago?
I'm sorry, but that is not what happened.

Just because I do not reply to a comment doesn't mean that I don't have a reply. I do not feel a need to speak my mind on every issue, or to carry a point past a certain level.

This thread is an excellent example. I've already made my point and I am not going to engage in this discussion at the level Sparky Paul is setting, so I see no need to contribute further. If the rest of you want to hurl insults and stereotypes around then I've provided the means for you to do so. Entertain yourselves.

Jim
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Old Sep 13, 2001, 06:59 PM
Master of disaster
Travis's Avatar
Northern Virginia
Joined May 2000
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I have to side with Jbourke on this issue. It's not the faith but
the manipulation of faith that is the culprit.

Rarely has religion been the sole reason for war. The sole basis
for all war is to aquire power, land, natural wealth, ect.

Of course it helps if your enemy has differing beleifs. This can
be used to demonize the enemy. Much like the way islam terrorists see all westerners as 'decadant capitolists' ...
or the way we once viewed all Germans as nazis.... or
all american indians as godless heathens...... and so on.

One radio talk show host said he actually looked forward
to the day when an alien race attacked earth so we would
all band together as humans to fight a common enemy.

Of course, that enemy is aready here....it goes by the name
of intolerance, fear, and hatred.
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Old Sep 13, 2001, 07:42 PM
Too young to be a senior.
planecrash's Avatar
USA
Joined Apr 2001
288 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by electricman45
YOU ARE FULL OF BULL****. I'D LIKE TO SEE YOUR DISBELIEF WHEN YOU ARE BEING JUDGED BY GOD FOR YOUR ACTIONS AND BELIEFS! EVERYONE WILL BE JUDGED, DON'T THINK BECAUSE YOU DON'T BELIEVE, IT DOESN'T EXIST!
I agree
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