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Old Jul 20, 2009, 10:24 PM
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ST MODELS DG1000 RTF EPO with RMS

Hi all

Haven't noticed a separate thread for this model. Relatively new on the market for AUD 300 to 350 with Tx/Rx. ...so trying to start one. Have their ASW 28 as well and am on that forum in this group...duration and discussion.

also only found post in this forum http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_82...tm.htm#8211042

but post is a little aged.

also Wattflyer appears to have some current action on this model...at
http://www.wattflyer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=622242

Any takers ?? to discuss this thread.....

HJ
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Old Aug 06, 2009, 01:44 AM
Slope,thermal and Scale flying
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Nice work Hondajet. I am sure we will get some response sooner or later. i am thinking of getting the DG1000 when my tax comes in Which one would you say flies better. The DG1000 or ASW 28???
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Old Aug 08, 2009, 09:10 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chamm37
Nice work Hondajet. I am sure we will get some response sooner or later. i am thinking of getting the DG1000 when my tax comes in Which one would you say flies better. The DG1000 or ASW 28???
Thanks Chamm.....

Hey!
I did the right thing and spent my Economic Stimulus Payment at the LHS on her and a DX7.....LOL!

It is a little hard to compare because they have different characteristics...within their nature.... & they are both a treat to fly.

Am flying both of them fairly regularly ...with weather permitting...for us below the 26th ...at the moment. The ASW with the 2409-12T motor mod flies or more so launches like a rocket on only Half throttle and its climb rate is much faster....probably so on the stock kit as well...it looks more "sexy" in the air ... you got to watch its speed in dives though ...coming out of loops etc...and also dont pull up too hard otherwise wings will flutter/vibrate when you exceed their design limit They have a very high Aspect ratio (long and thin) compared to the DG1000...I dare say the Full scale version ASW28 has these limits as well?

Both appear to be excellent thermal lovers ....the DG also likes windier conditions and bumps up more easily than the ASW because of the inbuilt camber on the main wing on its trailing edge from the wing root to the aileron.

That said however ....the ASW still holds my duration record at 40min30sec for a 5 minute total (in 1x5 motor runs) in our duration forum run by Mr K. My longest run for the DG at the moment under same conditions is 31 Minutes !

I wrote to latin105fm ( Dan) in the UK who is thinking of upgrading from a Multiplex Easystar. I will put what I said to him in the post below.....for some more interesting information.... I also discovered "gold" in her handling performance yesterday..... re Side Slipping !!! Yes she really does it so beautifully....am very impressed!

Cheers

HJ
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Old Aug 08, 2009, 10:11 AM
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DG1000 Introduction

Yes the ST Models DG1000 kit is quite something in performance and LOOKS!.
and would be a neat SCALE upgrade to consider.... with the true to scale looks and the as real RMS (Retract Motor System) for modelers that like the detail of the Full Scale DG. and the kit is very capable of more detailing if you wish to do so.

The kit advertises that flying weight is only 750g ....but my empty weight
on my finished model (with MODS and AR7000 RX)
comes in at 810g without the battery and with battery it weighs up to
930g!

Even on this All up Weight.....she still performs remarkably well and will
climb to over 1500 feet in just over one minute on ONLY 75% power on the Stock motor and Prop.

1500 FPM VSI is some fantastic performance on 3/4 power setting...even
on a Full Scale aeroplane.

And when you get there or higher to 2000' or more she is a fantastic soarer
and thermal sensitive ship. I had her up there yesterday where I took the
photos(attached) and she just did not want to come down and was getting
higher and higher in RMS stowed mode and trimmed out to glide.

I was trying to figure out how to get her down before I lost
orientation....I raised the engine and let the prop windmill (Brake has
to be off by default..to activate the prop mechanical stop at vertical at 1/5
retraction stage) but this did not have much affect...tried to spin ...but
this was ineffective because of the greater than 2 metre wingspan...so
all I could do was gently push the nose down and force altitude loss with the
windmilling motor having a minimal affect on the drag......it seemed like
ages ( about 1.5 to 2 minutes) before I got it down to 500" or so and then I
thought I would try a Sideslip.....Opposite aileron and rudder with a bit of
down elevator....WOW what a performer in this manoeuvre! She has a whopping huge rudder (almost the size of the Fin) and huge ailerons that make the slip to loose altitude fast and possible without gaining speed....just like the full size gliders do......I am so impressed....with the full control I have with the crossed controls in this sequence and it is really something to see her under full control in that sideslip!

The large Aileron and Rudder also make it a "good as it gets" aerobatic performer (With RMS stowed!)...at height though.... with moderate speed control as in any glider(Model and Full size) she is capable of nice rolls off the top of loops very gracefully.

So besides that what more can I say but she is a super performer! The Tip
stalling comment ? ? ...she is as docile as a lamb !! at low speeds.
I also factor in a 55% mix on my Ailerons and rudder control for some nice
flat turns and even low to the ground she handles well. Ask any
pilot...any aircraft will tip stall if you let it get slow enough and
abuse the airspeed... and start doing some hairy turns or mishandle your
controls.

On the stall of the wing my DG just pitches down with minimal wing tip
drop and recovers easily.

The stock motor/prop and ESC(30A rated on 3S) combination provide heaps of power and I only use a Rhino 1250mAh 3S .

In our winter conditions down here I am getting near to 30 min soaring
time on 5 one minute battery runs ( you got to get high though first) with
still enough reserve power left for another 5 or six full climb minutes.

She has a built in camber under the wing to each aileron which is so
effective in giving you the extra lift every time you turn into wind or
ride some gusts.

She is also easy to transport and the wings come off quite easily after
loosening the 2 holding screws. Your camera should fit ok...an as you see
I have done a lot in the cockpit area for detailing as compared to the
original kit....cutting out the EP etc. ...you should have plenty of
room to work with...you may want to remove the Perspex canopy (take the white tape off) and replace it again using white Electrical Insulation tape
...separate strips for the front back and sides like I did....to give you
some room to work out things.

The only problem I had was with the stock prop stop mechanism which broke off on the 1st couple of flights...I have since repaired it with a better
design and a metal(paperclip) pin insert drilled into the broken off
plastic stump and fitted my own rubber stop replacement secured with a little CA. Other that the mechanics of the rest of the system are pretty sturdy and well designed...and it is driven by a Full Size servo as well!

EDIT: Also a Good Idea to put some Grease/ Vaseline on the stop rubber after every 2nd or third flight to put less on the unit as it hits the stop after throttle back and stow stage 1 with a loud clack clack clack clack!

I also designed a landing undercarriage (fixed) with some give
suspension....but you have to cut and reinforce the area underneath the
RMS servo with some plywood design and screw the base in that supports the plastic wheel gear which is fastened to it with a separate nut and bolt tensioned it against the rubber tube suspension.

Cheers

HJ
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Old Aug 08, 2009, 02:43 PM
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Hi Hondajet,

And where did you pick up this glider from?
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Old Aug 08, 2009, 10:24 PM
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Australia, NSW, Peakhurst
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis H.
Hi Hondajet,

And where did you pick up this glider from?
Nice review Hondajet....

I just got mine a few days ago and waiting to put together... time limited

Dennis,

I got mine from Kelletts Hobbies in Liverpool Sydney , not much good for you being in Australia.
But I guess with the US$ and postage it might work out better:
http://www.kellettshobbies.com.au/Ho...1/Default.aspx

Item is not yet on the their site about $290 AUS Dollars email them for a price.
Richard
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Old Aug 08, 2009, 11:38 PM
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Denton Tx.
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Hi Bear_au

I shot them an e-mail, $290 AUS works out around $243.17 USD

Thanks.
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Old Aug 08, 2009, 11:53 PM
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Australia, NSW, Peakhurst
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis H.
Hi Bear_au

I shot them an e-mail, $290 AUS works out around $243.17 USD

Thanks.
No probs, comes with TX 36 meg and RX.. but I'll be changing that to Spectrum ... also a 3s 1300mHa lipo max and cheap charger.. and X4 mini servos and X1 standard servo for lifting motor pod..
So it is a RTF... apart from the 36 Meg in your case
cheers
Richard
BTW it is Sunday here and After 3pm.. they have closed for the day... I guess they will get back to you tomorrow
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Old Aug 09, 2009, 12:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dennis H.
Hi Bear_au

I shot them an e-mail, $290 AUS works out around $243.17 USD

Thanks.
Yes over in the West....I had to pay $330 AUS from my LHS...coz of extra postage from Eastern States..!

As mentioned comes with 36m Mhz Australian Freq Tx/Rx....But I use my DX7/AR7000 combination in it. You particularly need the 2 stage flap switch in it to activate the RMS properly ...if you are not using the stock Tx/Rx.

I am still using all the stock servos....All good this time ! ....plus the ESC ...which is straight out of their ST Skylane 182 success model. The Stock motor is a gem as well ....like the generic outrunner in their Skylane kit.

Went Flying again this morning and had to work in with a Robinsion 44 Heli giving joy flights at the Yacht Club next door to the Nedlands Foreshore park.


HJ
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Old Aug 09, 2009, 12:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondajet
Yes over in the West....I had to pay $330 AUS from my LHS...coz of extra postage from Eastern States..!

As mentioned comes with 36m Mhz Australian Freq Tx/Rx....But I use my DX7/AR7000 combination in it. You particularly need the 2 stage flap switch in it to activate the RMS properly ...if you are not using the stock Tx/Rx.

I am still using all the stock servos....All good this time ! ....plus the ESC ...which is straight out of their ST Skylane 182 success model. The Stock motor is a gem as well ....like the generic outrunner in their Skylane kit.

Went Flying again this morning and had to work in with a Robinsion 44 Heli giving joy flights at the Yacht Club next door to the Nedlands Foreshore park.


HJ
Hi HJ,
Going to do the same with the Spectrum AR7000... I like the wheel mod and the Canopy touches you did..
also have the AWS 28 in fact that was what I went to get in the first place until I saw the DG 1000... so I bought both.. AWS28 is on special for $180.00 AUS at Kelletts as well.. bought a couple of extra lipos X1 2s and 1X3 s...
do you know about the thread for the ASW28:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...1#post12827328 ?

Some of the guys on the east coast have these and we started a thread but made some mods so everybody could get in on the stats/Act.. go to the first post and see the rules.. well not rules as such, but a way to make it open to every body and not just a few... I don't know if you know about it.. but it will be fun. And will help new thermal flyers strive for better flying.

With the mods and the increase in weight .. I guess you had to add some tail weight for the CG. I want to add my cam gear into it for VR flying .. I run a site over here just for something to do and help aout newbies..but not a lot of time to keep it up to date with work www.rcflying.com.au it's more of a reference site. I only put things on there that I know about and are not rip offs...
bought X2 Altitude MicroSensor (standalone or e-logger) V3 from
http://www.hobbycity.com/hobbycity/..._e -logger)_V3

X1 for each plane... just to see how they go.. worked out about $42.00 Aus landed at $0.81 cents in the dollar yesterday.

I'm interested in how you did the Wheel mod.?

Anyway ..
Cheers for the East Coast.. lovely place WA.. don't get over there much these days..

Richard
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Old Aug 09, 2009, 01:32 AM
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[QUOTE=Bear_au]Hi HJ,
Going to do the same with the Spectrum AR7000... I like the wheel mod and the Canopy touches you did..


I'm interested in how you did the Wheel mod.?



Hey Richard!!

This thread is going too fast for me to catch up !!! LOL


I am already into the ASW forum site if you look back on the posts

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...8#post12838381 a


and the Duration site as well !!! on the Cat2 Modded section with that Record 40min30sec!

Will get to answer your questions hang on!

Also got a Altitude logger from HC on the way to me. Good Stuff!!

HJ
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Old Aug 09, 2009, 02:00 AM
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Comments on the RMS system

I must admit the DG is a little more fun to fly with the RMS (Retract Motor System) and I have to do it semi manually with the DX7 flap channel in two stages of the toggle switch... to position the prop vertical against the spring stop for stowing.

The motor brake is off by default on ESC .....One Beep signal (2 beeps is ON) The Prop Stow function needs it off to make the prop windmill and park against the stop after going past it a few times like a "Chocolate Wheel" ....Just have to delay the second stage retract 5 to 10 seconds to give the prop a second or third chance to stop vertical if it misses the stop the first time. Is is also a good idea to lubricate the rubber stop with Vaseline or similar to place less stress on the stop mechanism.

This is the way it works for the DX7 Tx setup....Before you stow reduce power slowly and cut the throttle to Windmill. Then switch 1st stage of flap selector on Tx and the motor arm swings back about 20 deg and activates the spring clip rubber prop brake... the prop then windmills in the slipstream to come to rest against the stop vertical after a few turns....wait 10 second for that and then go to stage 2 on the flaps switch which gives it a clean retract.. bay doors fully closed. You will also have to adjust the end stop position on the relative servo max travel menu on the Rx to stop servo binding on the fully extended and fully retracted position. In the mid stage 20 deg position the servo does make a little buzz on mine but this is quite normal and under no stress or binding...you can also adjust the amount of this stage angle through the sub trim function.


If you don't get that right the prop just sits outside crossed over the open retract bay doors...but places no stress on the system...only looks untidy until you try again. So all this gives you something more interesting to do and fun when you do it well.

By the way.... if you accidentally knock or push the throttle while the motor is in the bay....No drama!...there is an immediate cutoff and reset inbuilt into the motor...or ESC I think.....what a brilliant idea!!....so there is no way you can blow the system up that way. If the motor and prop hits any resistance or restriction under throttle input..there us just a long beep after it meets its resistance and the power is cut...3 or 4 seconds later there is a reset short beep and the power is then restored. So in panic if you accidentally apply power before you raise the prop... you then have to throttle back again... raise the RMS wait for the reset and off you go....Important you have to close the Throttle BEFORE the motor resets itself. ...otherwise NO POWER!

But I still like my "Rocket Ship" the ASW28 ......and I love flying both of them... so for me....there is enough difference in their performance and handling to keep me happy!
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Old Aug 10, 2009, 12:49 AM
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Hints on COG Placement DG1000 AND Trim for Balanced Launching

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bear_au
Hi HJ,


With the mods and the increase in weight .. I guess you had to add some tail weight for the CG. I want to add my cam gear into it for VR flying .
Richard
A point to note prior to discussion is that the COG is given as two points in the handling notes Product Manual of the DG.

* 53mm behind the leading edge when the RMS is completely folded. (because of the shift of weight due to the motor reposition rearwards)

* 46mm behind the leading edge when the RMS is completely deployed (unfolded for Power Launching and climbing)

In the generic calculation of COG for the standard aerofoil 25% - 35% MAC(Mean Aerodynamic Chord) is generally accepted as a good range for the CG of a conventional tailed aircraft.

In Aerodynamics (Model and Real) COG calculations can get quite complicated with things like Swept wings/Delta wings/Bi Planes/Centre of Pressure(Lift) as only some things to consider ... like this calculator

http://www.willingtons.com/aircraft_...vity_calcu.htm

But lets keep it simple here and you can use this format for most of your conventional models....Like the DG....it works for me! and you can confidently launch her with a minimum of fuss.

Mentioned above is the MAC which is meant to cover all wing designs...ie swept/tapering etc where the MAC is not the distance measured where the Wing meets the Fuselage...but for the DG's wing.... it is fairly uniform out to the Ailerons and beyond and therefore the distance in mm from the leading edge to the trailing edge measured at the fuselage meeting point is good enough for our MAC figure in the DG's calculation.

So we go ahead and measure the MAC and it should be 160mm for the DG. (See my Pic) for details.

Then punch out the 35% value and 25% value on your calculator and you will get 56mm and 40mm respectively. These officially are the FORWARD and REAR limits of your COG envelope.... Every aircraft has them. Yes the COG Moves!! ie. the two positions given at the start of this discussion for Stow and Deploy modes.

The movement and Level Balance position within the Fore and Aft limits is also dependent on the All Up Weight AUW of your particular DG or any other model......the equipment you have on board like Spectrum Rx's ..Cameras sensors and Detail Mods etc. If you have a balance situation outside these limits FWD and REAR the Pilot will be prone to crash in any aircraft experiencing great difficulty in handling and control input problems. Why do you think we have Flight Despatchers for Civil Airlines and Loadmasters for the C17 and 130!

Also a final Level Balance position toward the Forward Limit offers a more STABLE aircraft (Very good for Gliders and A380's !!) while if your final Level Balance position is towards the Rear Limit you will end up with a very Twitchy aircraft that is prone to stall. (Very good for 3D and Performance Aerobatic aircraft)

So now we go back to the Sheng Teng Product Manual of the DG1000 and see that their recommended COG figures of 53mm and 46mm are nicely within our brilliant calculation above using the 25% to 35% MAC RULE. And they put those 2 holes under each wing roughly in Fwd and Aft limit points!

Now I mentioned above the AUW and its effect on the movement of your COG within the FWD and AFT(REAR) limits that you have calculated for your particular MAC. After all your equipment and MODS have been installed the only variable to AUW should be the Battery you use.

The lightest battery you use should have a level balance points towards or right on the Rear Limit and The heaviest battery should have a level balance point on the forward limit or slightly before it.

With the Lightest battery if you cannot balance LEVEL by the Rear Limit....THAT'S where you have to add weight (ballast) to the TAIL and conversely with the Heaviest battery if you cannot balance LEVEL by the Forward Limit....THAT'S where you have to add weight(ballast) to your nose.
...or instead move the battery or equipment enough to adjust this if you can.

So to answer your question Richard...."With the mods and the increase in weight .. I guess you had to add some tail weight for the CG.?"

Luckily NO ! The ST model designer must take some credit ...but after all my changes which really did not add to much collectively....the Empty weight with all the equipment on board...Rx + Satelite and body mods came up to 820gm. Flying weight with the Heaviest battery(110gm) then takes my setup to an AUW of 930gm which is 180g heavier than the Product Manual stated 750gm Flying AUW. At the 930 AUW the Level balance point is at 43 mm (27% MAC) without any weight adjustment in ballast.

Increasing the AUW by 20gm to 950gm in the equipment area then takes the level Balance point to AT or 1mm forward of maximum limit. So I would call this the heaviest you could load this particular model without increasing the AUW by adding weight in the Tail in this case to make the DG balance level at the forward limit above 950gm Flying Weight (AUW). On saying that I feel that she should comfortably load up to 1000g MAX AUW with compensating ballast included before difficulty in handling could be experienced with Wing Loadingfactors to be considered.

So that gives those that want to load her up with Equipment some idea what her capable payload is......but I think she will not be as good a glider at that 1000g AUW ...an more a Troop Transport!

The FINAL and importantconsideration in all this and for the SUCCESS in your maiden 1st launch is the Trim Setting of your elevator...the control surface that directly interacts with your COG in the pitch control axis.

Firstly make sure your Elevator is set at Zero neutral at the Zero trim position and control stick central. (hands off)

Ideally you will want to have some Up Trim selected on your launch. As a guide on my setup 930g AUW...... I have 26 to 28 units of UP trim selected for the launch. On the Dx7 Tx the trim adjust switch beeps once for each input...each beep represents 2 units (so 13 to 14 beeps) ....the Max setting gives 26 beeps (52 units of trim) so the trim range set for Hand Launch is about halfway as a guide.

Once you have reached altitude and are ready to glide, you then adjust the trim More or Less as required (usually less) after retracting the RMS to achieve an even hands off steady level glide forward at a Good Airspeed. You are then ready to have FUN and go looking for Lift and Thermal activity by the visual confirmation and joy of seeing your DG responding to them with level Upward movements and small wing lifts on either side. Then circle just like the soaring Eagles and Pelicans do! and try to catch the Rise!

On landing it might also help in your flare and approach if you move the trim setting forward 3 to 5 beeps...ie. 6 to ten units of down trim to avoid porpoising as you are nearing the ground ...to achieve a graceful touchdown.
And as I have said in previous posts...she also just wants to float and float near the ground with every little puff of wind she meets because of that brilliant underwing Camber at the Trailing edge.

While on this subject.....the two settings of COG for RMS UP and RMS Down require noTrim change as there is hardly a noticeable pitch change in the two positions

I also have my control throws increased. Ailerons 20deg Up/Down (from 10)
Rudder 30deg Left/Right (from 20)
Elevator 30deg Up/Down (from 15)

The smaller figures are the Product manual settings...what you have is a personal preference. You hardly use all the movement in your normal flight anyway..... and the extra movement comes in handy for Aerobatics and Handling in low speed conditions as in Landing.

Also it is helpful TIP to mix your Aileron control to the Rudder on your Tx program mode. I have my DG set at 55% to enable all turns to be flatter for less height loss when circling.

So guys "It is as Simple As That" and hopefully these tips will have the DG just "Flying out of your Hand" at 75% power set for launch!

Happy flying.....

HJ
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Old Aug 10, 2009, 01:27 AM
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I was in my LHS this morning and asked if thety had heard of the ST Model DG1000. The answer came swiftly.. "You mean this one?

B*stards caught me there, now I have to buy one Price of $295 RTF is not bad for 300kms north of Sydney..
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Old Aug 10, 2009, 10:43 AM
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Thx HJ,

Thanks for the detail it is nice to see someone else uses their brain and not just brut force...
Very informative and a lot of work .. very good for the thread and I can see you take great pride and pleasure in tuning your craft.. not many do..
I can see why you hold the record on the ASW28 sect 2..

I also have found that while tuning my M60 it is within 1/32" transforms the plane for a slug to a rocket.. but the throws have to be adjusted as well...
I have a tendency to push on my slope planes..many are planks and wings way back and have very little ele throw ..
the M60 has a total elevator of 1/16 / that's 1/32 up and down..
although I always start nose heavy with a good throw and work back from there... pushing back the CG and reducing the throws to keep the twitch out.. until it is really hard to control then bring it forward.

I tested the DG1000 stock out of the box and the it was on the money for the CG with both.just left the +RX , futaba style RX in it to see just how it would go...

Did notice the tip to be very soft.. might put some laminate film on the tips and the LE say 5-7cm wide and iron along the LE.. and the
top and bottom of the tip to strengthen them.. the addition weigh will be nothing really but the support will be 100 times better.
Looking forward to part 2.

Hi Tonystott..
welcome aboard... HJ has a real good handle on the DG1000 as well as the ASW28 very similar.. that was what I first went to buy at my LHS and then saw the DG1000... well the rest is history.. and the wallet is lighter and they say golf can be expensive yea right...
I have yet to fly either of the planes.. put the DG1000 pretty much together in one night.. but there are things I what to do to it before I maiden it...
and I am not talking about the cam gear yet.. want to het the feel of it first then add the gear... but form all report to-date you wont be sorry at all.
I'll await for the next chapter from HJ.. interesting once we get the Altitude MicroSensor (standalone or e-logger) V3 installed.

Unlike some other electric sailplanes I have had these two seem to be of really good quality. I went down this path mainly because I go to a farm with the wife for a weekend in the southern highland and not a good spot around for slope or bungee.. my electrics are all under carriage except for the floats on the Cessna and again you are limited to 10 to 20 minutes fly time.. depends how many cows you chase and the farmer has a few words to say about that ... so up up and away lay back and hunt for some real lift.. and learn something... put a cam on one later and get some real nice shoots.... but for aerial I have another nearly ready.. all hot wire cut and it just time to get some more hardware ... and that is the Solution AP with an EFlite 32.. 80" wing span and 13" cord should have a payload of at least 1.5 -2 kg... Canon G9 , Samsung video recorder on board, FMA auto pilot,OSD,GPS G85 RX, 2.4 GHz videoTX to ground diversity RX, with video feed to goggles and the headtracker R1 for Pan and tilt for the small 480 line PAL cam with semi wide angle but let me tell you it NOT relaxing...with that gear up there,
bring on the DG1000...


cheers
Richard
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FS: NEW GWS ZERO RTF outfit with JR Computer Radio Etonic Aircraft - Electric - Airplanes (FS/W) 1 Nov 03, 2002 09:15 AM
Wanted! RTF HLG with bagged wing jimmy6819 Aircraft - Sailplanes (FS/W) 0 Oct 09, 2002 02:45 PM