Poll How many people ran Fasst versus Spektrum

[aeajr]

I don't care which is better, Ford or Chevy, Spektrum or Futaba. They all work and all will get you were you need to go.

My only interest in this discussion is how well they perform under extraordinarly conditions. SEFF is just one example.

Some people feel everything is just fine. Others feel that we are pushing these 2.4 sytems to the edge of safety with so many units operating in close proximity.

I don't know what the truth is. But every little tidbit, like c/f's post, bring a little more information, a new data point that I did not have a week ago.

So thanks to everyone for sharing your experiences.

[ekotil]

I have just finished reading this very interesting and entertaining thread and I have to add my .02 worth as I have on other similar commentaries. I have flown and continue to fly 40+ planes and a few heli's on a plane DX7 and on a heli DX7. The latter has a few heli's on it. For almost 3 years I have had TOTAL trouble free operation with all of my stuff from a 29'' span little Rascal to a 110'' big Rascal with most other sizes in between, all electric powered! Since Spektrum my flying has been totally trouble free. Yea, I had to send back 17 6100's in 2 shipments, but Horizon took care of them all even though I told them I never had a problem. My R/C hobby that I enjoy tremendously has been made this way because of 2.4 and Spektrum. Everyone is entitled to buy and fly what they want. I bet you all know what I will continue to use. It sure is nice to know now when I crash what went wrong. It, of course, was me! By the way, I had 0 problems at SEFF this year!

[aeajr]

ekotill,

Thanks for your discussion. Certainly you have a large invenotry of Spektrum to be able to speak with confidence.

Since you flew at SEFF, did you experience any link-up delays, similar to what c/f reported? When were you at SEFF?

[ekotil]

Originally Posted by aeajr

ekotill,

Thanks for your discussion. Certainly you have a large invenotry of Spektrum to be able to speak with confidence.

Since you flew at SEFF, did you experience any link-up delays, similar to what c/f reported? When were you at SEFF?

Since I also worked on the staff at SEFF my flying was limited to Wednesday evening, Thursday afternoon and evening, Friday evening and Saturday evening. If there were any delays I was unaware of them since I turned on as soon as a station opened and I proceeded to take off. I also only flew in the Parkflyer and 3D sections. It seemed like business as usual!

[flieslikeabeagle]

Originally Posted by yank51

More importantly, what was the original intent of beagles post anyway?? To incite more Chevy vs. Ford crap??

Yank - I recommend you learn to pay more attention when you read, since what you perceived and what I wrote have not very much in common.

Try re-reading my post. While you're complaining over whether my use of "several years" was correct or not, you seem to have completely missed the most important part of the post: I listed three serious problems with Futaba equipment - production transmitters with the zero GUID bug that should have never left the factory, production receivers that are excessively sensitive to temperatures encountered in routine operation, and the corporate decision so leave US customers stuck with defective equipment, despite having been forced by better consumer protection laws to do a recall in Europe.

Like it or not, Futaba had all those problems - Spektrum didn't, Airtronics didn't, Hitec didn't. This isn't "Chevy vs Ford", this is "Futaba messes up royally and then leaves their US customers holding the bag".

Is the intent of the post becoming clearer now? It is to better inform those who hold the (false) belief that all 2.4 GHz systems are robust and safe ways to fly a model aeroplane. That they are all more or less the same except for the label.

The fact is that rushed engineering, production mistakes, and poor quality control will compromise any product, and in this case, one of the Big Two manufacturers of 2.4 GHz spread-spectrum aircraft radio has experienced far more of these problems than the other. And that one is Futaba.

Originally Posted by yank51

I was reading this thread to get some useful information

In that case, you are probably grateful for all the links I posted. You're welcome.

Originally Posted by yank51

I'm not making any money off of any particular radios system being sold.

Same here.

Originally Posted by yank51

I do know that those of use who fly Futaba here are NOT having ANY issues, heat, zero GUID or otherwise, period.

Good, perhaps Futaba finally fixed these very serious technical foul-ups that never should have left the prototype stage in the first place. Better late than never, certainly.

Originally Posted by yank51

most have lost any semblance of decency

True, some people even respond to a civil and informative post with rude and accusatory replies like this one:

Originally Posted by yank51

Nice spin... Do you write ads BTW???

-Flieslikeabeagle

[flieslikeabeagle]

Originally Posted by aeajr

My only interest in this discussion is how well they perform under extraordinary conditions. SEFF is just one example.

Some people feel everything is just fine. Others feel that we are pushing these 2.4 sytems to the edge of safety with so many units operating in close proximity.

All 2.4 GHz systems are NOT the same. It makes no sense to speak of "these 2.4 GHz systems". Each manufacturers systems are different, and some are based on much better engineering than others. Some will fail, some will not, with multiple units operating in close proximity.

Some brands (Assan, Corona) have neither redundant channels nor frequency agility, and have been tested and shown to fail dismally in the presence of high levels of 2.4 GHz RF (I posted links to tests earlier). XPS systems apparently also fail spectacularly in these conditions.

However, as it happens, there has been some well documented third-party testing of this issue (performance with multiple other RC systems turned on simultaneously). The testing was done on Spektrum/JR DSM2 systems. I quote from a series of tests performed by Cal Orr and later published in Fly RC magazine:

Originally Posted by Fly RC

We subjected the JR R921 and AR9100 receivers to bench tests, ground range, and flight tests with more than 40 Spektrum DX7 transmitters turned on. We measured "latency", which is the time required to execute transmitter-to-servo commands.
<snip>
With all 40 DX7's turned on, there was no evidence of an increase in "response time" or latency for either the R921 or the AR 9100 receiver"
<snip>
...the AR 9100 receiver didn't lose a single frame and had zero holds.
Edit: The other receiver tested did lose a few frames out of roughly 18,000 total. Neither receiver experienced any holds.

There you have it. Third party testing of Spektrum systems found NO increase in latency, NO lost frames for the AR 9100 and only a few lost ones for the other receiver, and NO holds at all, in the presence of forty other DSM systems operating at the same time.

Similar testing was also performed by Cal Orr with 20 DSM systems and 20 "other" 2.4 GHz systems simultaneously turned on in the near vicinity of the JR system under test. The same results were obtained.

See attached screenshot of the magazine article, also available online here:
http://www.horizonhobby.com/Articles...ID=1789&Page=2

-Flieslikeabeagle

[Dave Burrow]

Does anyone have access to the full report quoted here: http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...049159&page=28 in post 406?

In that report they discuss problems seen by both Spektrum and FAAST systems in testing that seems to be more or less 'real world' in that similar situations could occur at major events. I am not familiar with the group or magazine or whoever it was that ran the test. It may be a subscription only source.

[theKM]

Originally Posted by flieslikeabeagle

The fact is that rushed engineering, production mistakes, and poor quality control will compromise any product, and in this case, one of the Big Two manufacturers of 2.4 GHz spread-spectrum aircraft radio has experienced far more of these problems than the other. And that one is Futaba.

Outside all the solid info you've posted, I believe that you're letting your own emotional content enter this little part. While I do believe that *today* the FASST stuff appears to be more solid (highly unsubstantiated emotional conclusion), I'll certainly agree that the Futaba handling of the heat issue was simply horrid, and that Spektrum handling the voltage issue was much more of a class act. Both company's "they suck" style advertising wears me thin.

[theKM]

Originally Posted by flieslikeabeagle

Like it or not, Futaba had all those problems - Spektrum didn't, Airtronics didn't, Hitec didn't. This isn't "Chevy vs Ford", this is "Futaba messes up royally and then leaves their US customers holding the bag".

Like it or not, your posts here are as biased as any others. Spektrum had more than it's fair share of public shame with respect to problems. Including taking out Quique's bipe in the middle of a demo. So other manufacturers had different problems, but they've had problems. And some of the lesser brands would probably squeal under stress tests like some of the videos linked from some of the articles you linked to show. The summary of it all would be 1) as you've even said, 2.4ghz doesn't necessarily mean it's rock solid, and 2) they've all had to deal with problems

...maybe a late 3) if you want to continue on your "Futaba sucks" bias that you clearly have, Futaba hasn't been anywhere near as good as Spektrum in handling problems with respect to public relations.

[exeter_acres]

Originally Posted by going4speed

I see all this talk of hits to Spektrum versus Fasst but what is this ratio really?

FASST for me... N'er a problem

flying from 4oz foamies to 40%ers

[ekotil]

By the way it seems obvious that not many people read the last written issue of RC Report. It had an excellent full test of most of the 2.4 systems up against each other. Guess what "Brand" clearly came out on top? Guess which ones were clearly inferior? The author of the test thought enough of one "Brand" of 2.4 to put it in his new, very expensive "Big Bird"! I am not going to tell you who came out on top so you will have to research for yourself!

[davecee]

Originally Posted by ekotil

By the way it seems obvious that not many people read the last written issue of RC Report. It had an excellent full test of most of the 2.4 systems up against each other. Guess what "Brand" clearly came out on top? Guess which ones were clearly inferior? The author of the test thought enough of one "Brand" of 2.4 to put it in his new, very expensive "Big Bird"! I am not going to tell you who came out on top so you will have to research for yourself!

That's not very helpful. I don't get RC Report. Just tell us for goodness sake.

Dave

[sonicjet]

Originally Posted by ekotil

By the way it seems obvious that not many people read the last written issue of RC Report. It had an excellent full test of most of the 2.4 systems up against each other. Guess what "Brand" clearly came out on top? Guess which ones were clearly inferior? The author of the test thought enough of one "Brand" of 2.4 to put it in his new, very expensive "Big Bird"! I am not going to tell you who came out on top so you will have to research for yourself!

I'll put it this way,it was the competitor of their big sponsor.

[flieslikeabeagle]

Originally Posted by theKM

Futaba hasn't been anywhere near as good as Spektrum in handling problems with respect to public relations.

Or at handling the zero GUID issue ethically (why no recall in the USA?). Or at handling the heat-sensitive receiver issue ethically (no recall of an obviously defective product).

Personal bias? Sure! I'd have to ignore a number of pertinent facts to not have one by now. At this point I wouldn't touch the Futaba stuff because of the way the company has treated their customers over the zero GUID and heat failure issues, not to mention higher prices for comparable products. Futaba released clearly defective products, and did not take responsibility for them when the defects were uncovered, leaving US customers holding the bag.

There are also technical issues regarding Spektrum's use of multiple receivers to minimize the chance of RF shadowing, and the question of FHSS vs DSSS spread-spectrum technology.

On the RF shadowing issue, I have a pretty good handle on the concepts because I have a solid background in wave optics. The essential diffraction phenomena are identical whether you're dealing with light waves or radio waves. There is no doubt that using multiple receivers spaced odd numbers of half wave-lengths apart reduces the probability of complete RF shadowing; there is no doubt that using multiple receivers with antennae oriented in mutually perpendicular directions gives the same benefits. And only Spektrum has these advantages.

On the FHSS vs DSSS issue, I'm not an RF engineer, but I've talked to a couple, and it seems that DSSS (as used by Spektrum) has a definite advantage in signal to noise ratio over FHSS (as used by Futaba). I don't know the relevant math myself, but I have no reason to doubt the capabilities of the people I communicated with.

So yes, I have come to the conclusion that Spektrum products are based on better engineering decisions than Futaba products, that quality control in manufacturing has been better, and that the parent company has been more responsible in handling those mistakes that did make it to production. That decison/ opinion/ bias isn't based on blind brand loyalty though - as a matter of fact, before Spektrum hit the market, and before all these massive screw-ups on Futaba's part, I was flying with a Futaba transmitter (a 7CAP, to be exact).

-Flieslikeabeagle

[ekotil]

RC Report is no longer available as a written monthly magazine but it is still available on-line. It was the most un-biased and truthful RC publication there was. Two of their biggest advertisers were Tower and Horizon. One sells one 2.4 and the other sells the other one! Unfortunately telling it like it is was their un-doing. Check what we have left in RC magazines. They basically report that they like everything they test.