Poll How many people ran Fasst versus Spektrum

[going4speed]

I see all this talk of hits to Spektrum versus Fasst but what is this ratio really?

[aeajr]

Guestimates is that about 80% of the 2.4 systems at SEFF were Spektrum. I don't konw the basis of that estimate but that is what I keep seeing.

[Warbirds Rule]

That ratio won't stay that way for very long if forum threads continue to report nothing but Spektrum lockouts, loss of control, etc. I like my DX7 a lot but find the number problems reported on nearly every RC forum from Spektrum users to be very unsettling. Hopefully, they'll come out with a new system that offers a more secure link as well as telemetry in the near future. Of course, that would basically require buying all new radio gear yet again which doesn't thrill me. To be honest though for the club flying I do it's probably a perfectly good radio system. I don't know how confident I'd feel to take my DX7 to a large event but fortunately, I don't attend any of those yet.

Sean

Originally Posted by aeajr

Guestimates is that about 80% of the 2.4 systems at SEFF were Spektrum. I don't konw the basis of that estimate but that is what I keep seeing.

[aeajr]

Considering the hundreds of Spekturm users at these events and the propensity of pilots to blame the radio when the problem is not radio related, I would expect to hear more problem reports from Spektrum users.

I don't think there are any valid/reliable stats captured for what radios were used at these big events, but I hope in the future they start to capture that information.

If the current estimates are even close, there are very few Futaba users. If 80% really are using Spekturm, then the remaining 20% is split between Futaba, Airtronics, XPS, Assan, Jet, and a variety of others.

My further speculation has to do with market share and the maturity of the users.

Spektrum seems to have targeted the entry level to midrange users in the form of parkflyer pilots and micro heli pilots. Between DX5, DX6, DX6i and DX7 systems, bind and fly and RTFs, I think they practically own that market. There are very few, if any, RTFs featuring Futaba. At least none that I recall. I am starting to see RTFs hit the market with some of the Chinese 2.4 systems.

I would guess that these are also the newest and least experienced pilots, overall. Not in all cases certainly but a very high percentage.

JR seems to be targeting the high end. Futaba also seems to be mostly targeting the high end. Most of the 2.4 Futaba reports I read are not for the entry level 6 channel but the higher end 10 channel radios or modules in older Futaba radios with 8 or more channel systems. Certainly a much smaller market and typically much more experienced.

These pilots will often be flying more expensive aircraft and are likely to be more careful about installation. You are less likely to see AR6100s in this space and more toward the AR6200s and above as well as the JR or Futaba equivalents in this class.


I am not making excuses for anyone's products, I am just looking at market share, market breakdown, and taking into consideration the type and number of pilots using each system. The more users, the more likely you are to get a report of a problem.

You may disagree, and I certainly have no hard numbers to back any of this. But based on the number of posts related to Spektrum, mostly positive, and the number of posts about other brands, it looks like Spektrum still has the lion's share of the total market and certainly the entry to mid range market.

Between RTFs and the new bind and fly offerings from Horizon that population will likely continue to grow. And once you get them hooked at the entry end of the market, the tendency will be to stay with that brand or type of system.

[FiremanBill]

Originally Posted by Warbirds Rule

That ratio won't stay that way for very long if forum threads continue to report nothing but Spektrum lockouts, loss of control, etc. I like my DX7 a lot but find the number problems reported on nearly every RC forum from Spektrum users to be very unsettling. Hopefully, they'll come out with a new system that offers a more secure link as well as telemetry in the near future. Of course, that would basically require buying all new radio gear yet again which doesn't thrill me. To be honest though for the club flying I do it's probably a perfectly good radio system. I don't know how confident I'd feel to take my DX7 to a large event but fortunately, I don't attend any of those yet.

Sean

I guarantee you that if the numbers were reversed, i.e. 80% Futaba as opposed to Spektrum, you would most likely hear of all the issues with Futaba at the big events.

Both of these systems have been tested, and are both very reliable. Anytime there is more of something on the market you'll hear of more issues.

I own a Spektrum DX7, so does my son. We have been to SEFF the last three years in a row and hit a lot of other mid sized events around our area as well as do a bunch of indoor flying. I wouldn't trade my Spektrum for anything, I love it.

Is it bullet proof? No. Is any radio system bullet proof? I doubt it.

I think what you see with all the negative reports is that people with issues are more likely to talk about it, than say, all those folks who went and didn't have any problems.

[c/f]

Since I actually FLY 3 differing types of 2.4G on a single 9303TX I have a unique perspective as to whats real and whats not on 3 differant brands at the same large events.

At SEFF I was flying Corona FHSS in my JR on a 140MPH Projetti, and Micro Mustang TUE, WED,THUR. by Friday it would take forever to actually lock in to fly rendering it useless until Sunday.

Spektrum ran fine for me on my models ,as well but by Fri/Sat long boot times where norm. Dont like the boot process as a wild card. makes me wonder whats going on. I did however have a lockout on third test hop of a prototype SR71 for DreamITRc. REALLY doubtfull of a power managment issue with 2 servos on a 60a Turnigy Plush.

FASST was flawless on my OUTLAW, and ended up buying a FASST rx for the Micro Stang. I fly JR indoor, Efest, and many larger 100 pilot events and FASST has never done anything weird period, it will boot instant rx first, TX first does not matter it is bingo on. Makes me wonder how it never changes no matter the enviroment while the others do vary.

I also have a Eagle Tree Dashboard that operates realtime data in Jets and it is a Beta version on 2.4G, It locks out at certain feilds in certain spots.

IMHO the booting process and the Collision Avoidance features of the linking process seems to be the interferece safeguard than any GUIDED signal coding. The larger expanse venues may prove this futile enviroment for DSSS.

[flieslikeabeagle]

Originally Posted by going4speed

I see all this talk of hits to Spektrum versus Fasst

I think this is very likely one of those guerrilla/viral marketing campaigns. It has a strong smell of emotional manipulation about it.

One interesting data point: employees at the local Hobby People (which does NOT sell Spektrum products, and loses money every time a Spektrum product is sold) are always bad-mouthing Spektrum products, claiming they are glitch-prone and unusable.

Another interesting data point: a flying buddy who took up parkflying a year or so ago turned out to be a very experienced RC pilot who has been flying RC turbine jets for years at the Apollo XI model field in Van Nuys, CA. He uses Spektrum radios at the park with his little parkflier models, and I asked him what he used on his big fast turbine jets; turns out he uses the same Spektrum equipment. He also told me that after several bad experiences, all his friends who also fly turbine jets switched from Futaba FASST products to Spektrum or JR 2.4 GHz systems.

But we'll never get anywhere trying to have a technical discussion based on word-of-mouth reports and emotional responses. So let's look at a few facts for a change:

1) Spektrum started marketing 2.4 GHz RC aircraft systems in late 2005. They followed up the hit DX6 with an even bigger hit, the DX7, in 2006.

2) It was several years before Futaba had any 2.4 GHz offerings at all. Futaba bled huge amounts of money in lost sales to Spektrum during these years. The DX6 and DX7 sold extremely well during this entire period. (Case in point: almost every single pilot at the park where I do much of my flying switched to Spektrum during this time period.)

3) Years later, Futaba finally brought their 2.4 GHz aircraft radio offerings to market. Not long after, it was discovered by unfortunate Futaba users that the company had released a large number of 2.4 GHz systems with a manufacturing defect (zero GUID) that allowed any one of these radios to control aircraft bound to any other. Many shoot-downs and lost aircraft resulted, before the problem was discovered at a flying field where three aircraft responded to the same Futaba Tx.

4) In Europe, Futaba was forced to do a complete recall on the defective zero-GUID transmitters.

5) In the USA, with weaker consumer protection laws, Futaba was not forced to do a recall. They did not do one voluntarily, either, merely putting a small service advisory on their website. This amounts to voluntarily allowing unreliable and dangerous RC systems to remain on the market and in the hands of unsuspecting users.

6) Several giant-scale RC models flown with Futaba 2.4 GHz equipment in hot parts of the American Southwest were lost following complete loss of radio communication. It was subsequently discovered that these supposedly high-end (and very expensive) 12 channel Futaba FASST receivers would overheat and shut down at the temperatures occuring inside these aircraft during normal operation on hot summer days.

7) Futaba did not recall these defective receivers, either.

8) Proving that no manufacturer is immune from creating defective products, Spektrum has had at least two product recalls I know of; one for some early AR6100 receivers with defective firmware, and a second more recent one affecting some DX6i transmitters. Note that when these products were found to be defective, Horizon Hobby/Spektrum did the right thing by recalling and replacing them at no cost to the consumer, rather than pretending everything was hunky-dory and leaving the customer saddled with unreliable or defective units.

The facts above are well known and widely reported, so anyone can look them up and verify them. No rumours and whisperings here, but verifiable facts.

Keep all this in mind when trying to decide if Spektrum or Futaba products have been more reliable/trustworthy so far. Don't forget also to consider what happens if you find you have a defective radio - one of these companies has a long history of outstanding customer support, the other a long history of sweeping problems under the carpet and leaving the customer holding the bag. Again, there is plenty of information out there - just do a little searching, and you'll find plenty of horror stories about Futaba customer "support" and quality control. (Try searching for "Futaba 7C throttle timer bug" for another example of a known defective product that Futaba continued to sell for years.)

On to unverifiable facts: I can tell you my personal experiences with these RC systems, but of course you have no way of knowing if I'm a lying rat or an honest man. Still, FWIW, I've been using Spektrum radios since Jan 2006. I usually fly several days a week and several flights a day, though there have been a few dry spells along the way. During all those many hundreds of problem-free flights, I've experienced one single case of complete loss of radio contact with a model, using a DX6 and AR6000 receiver. The cause was never established with certainty - it could have been an overworked BEC in the Hacker 20A ESC, or it could have been one of those fabled "Spektrum lockouts". We'll never know for sure.

I have NEVER experienced any problems at all, not one single one, since Jan 2007, when I bought a DX7. I use the DX7 with AR6000, AR7000, and AR6200 receivers. Never a single problem, not even with the original "parkflyers only" AR6000's. And this is with much of my flying at a park that is absolutely notorious for RF problems - they were entirely routine in the bad old days when I was flying there on 72 MHz, in the dark ages Before Spektrum.

-Flieslikeabeagle

[yank51]

Originally Posted by flieslikeabeagle

I think this is very likely one of those guerrilla/viral marketing campaigns. It has a strong smell of emotional manipulation about it.

One interesting data point: employees at the local Hobby People (which does NOT sell Spektrum products, and loses money every time a Spektrum product is sold) are always bad-mouthing Spektrum products, claiming they are glitch-prone and unusable.

Another interesting data point: a flying buddy who took up parkflying a year or so ago turned out to be a very experienced RC pilot who has been flying RC turbine jets for years at the Apollo XI model field in Van Nuys, CA. He uses Spektrum radios at the park with his little parkflier models, and I asked him what he used on his big fast turbine jets; turns out he uses the same Spektrum equipment. He also told me that after several bad experiences, all his friends who also fly turbine jets switched from Futaba FASST products to Spektrum or JR 2.4 GHz systems.

But we'll never get anywhere trying to have a technical discussion based on word-of-mouth reports and emotional responses. So let's look at a few facts for a change:

1) Spektrum started marketing 2.4 GHz RC aircraft systems in late 2005. They followed up the hit DX6 with an even bigger hit, the DX7, in 2006.

2) It was several years before Futaba had any 2.4 GHz offerings at all. Futaba bled huge amounts of money in lost sales to Spektrum during these years. The DX6 and DX7 sold extremely well during this entire period. (Case in point: almost every single pilot at the park where I do much of my flying switched to Spektrum during this time period.)

3) Years later, Futaba finally brought their 2.4 GHz aircraft radio offerings to market. Not long after, it was discovered by unfortunate Futaba users that the company had released a large number of 2.4 GHz systems with a manufacturing defect (zero GUID) that allowed any one of these radios to control aircraft bound to any other. Many shoot-downs and lost aircraft resulted, before the problem was discovered at a flying field where three aircraft responded to the same Futaba Tx.

4) In Europe, Futaba was forced to do a complete recall on the defective zero-GUID transmitters.

5) In the USA, with weaker consumer protection laws, Futaba was not forced to do a recall. They did not do one voluntarily, either, merely putting a small service advisory on their website. This amounts to voluntarily allowing unreliable and dangerous RC systems to remain on the market and in the hands of unsuspecting users.

6) Several giant-scale RC models flown with Futaba 2.4 GHz equipment in hot parts of the American Southwest were lost following complete loss of radio communication. It was subsequently discovered that these supposedly high-end (and very expensive) 12 channel Futaba FASST receivers would overheat and shut down at the temperatures occuring inside these aircraft during normal operation on hot summer days.

7) Futaba did not recall these defective receivers, either.

8) Proving that no manufacturer is immune from creating defective products, Spektrum has had at least two product recalls I know of; one for some early AR6100 receivers with defective firmware, and a second more recent one affecting some DX6i transmitters. Note that when these products were found to be defective, Horizon Hobby/Spektrum did the right thing by recalling and replacing them at no cost to the consumer, rather than pretending everything was hunky-dory and leaving the customer saddled with unreliable or defective units.

The facts above are well known and widely reported, so anyone can look them up and verify them. No rumours and whisperings here, but verifiable facts.

Keep all this in mind when trying to decide if Spektrum or Futaba products have been more reliable/trustworthy so far. Don't forget also to consider what happens if you find you have a defective radio - one of these companies has a long history of outstanding customer support, the other a long history of sweeping problems under the carpet and leaving the customer holding the bag. Again, there is plenty of information out there - just do a little searching, and you'll find plenty of horror stories about Futaba customer "support" and quality control. (Try searching for "Futaba 7C throttle timer bug" for another example of a known defective product that Futaba continued to sell for years.)

On to unverifiable facts: I can tell you my personal experiences with these RC systems, but of course you have no way of knowing if I'm a lying rat or an honest man. Still, FWIW, I've been using Spektrum radios since Jan 2006. I usually fly several days a week and several flights a day, though there have been a few dry spells along the way. During all those many hundreds of problem-free flights, I've experienced one single case of complete loss of radio contact with a model, using a DX6 and AR6000 receiver. The cause was never established with certainty - it could have been an overworked BEC in the Hacker 20A ESC, or it could have been one of those fabled "Spektrum lockouts". We'll never know for sure.

I have NEVER experienced any problems at all, not one single one, since Jan 2007, when I bought a DX7. I use the DX7 with AR6000, AR7000, and AR6200 receivers. Never a single problem, not even with the original "parkflyers only" AR6000's. And this is with much of my flying at a park that is absolutely notorious for RF problems - they were entirely routine in the bad old days when I was flying there on 72 MHz, in the dark ages Before Spektrum.

-Flieslikeabeagle

Nice spin... Do you write ads BTW???

[WTFLYR]

Originally Posted by yank51

Nice spin... Do you write ads BTW???

It's not all a spin. It's the first I've heard of the Futaba GUID issue. Glad I did.
He has a good point, in that recalls are responsible attempts to fix problems. The better company may be the one with more recalls, or in some cases, the one that actually has recall/s, versus another company with no recalls.

If the problems FLB listed have happened (not saying I doubt him, just that I don't want to speak factually about things I've just heard for the first time) then I would say that their test protocall is almost nil, to not find some of those issues. "Let's see, turn on the prototype transmitter, servo moves, It's for sale!!!"

[init4fun]

...

[flieslikeabeagle]

Yank51 - you obviously have a browser and an internet connection. It's a safe bet that you've heard of Google. Use the tools you have, and learn the facts, unless you prefer to continue to live in ignorance. Like it or not, there have been massive technical screw-ups on Futaba's part when it comes to their 2.4 GHz equipment.

WTFLYR: Thanks for the objectivity! For some reason Futaba fans tend to see red at the mere thought that their cherished brand might be less than perfect, and tend to try to shoot the messenger rather than read the message.

I see you already found links to the Zero GUID problem. For the benefit of those who haven't, here is the starting point for that particular storm: take a look at this January 2008 RC Universe thread, starting with post #71, where the problem is clearly laid out by a smart and level-headed RC pilot, describing events exactly as they unfolded at his flying field:
http://www.rcuniverse.com/forum/m_68...tm.htm#6880380

Online magazine article describing the problem, and the product recall in Europe:
http://www.rcmodelreviews.com/futabafasstfoobar.shtml

Summary thread listing a LOT of "incidents" caused by Futaba's zero-GUID screwup:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=798002

Futaba's own acknowledgement of the zero-GUID problem, and resulting service advisory:
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=803207

Note that while Futaba was forced to agree that some units had shipped with zero GUID, they never did admit that the GUID on ANY of these products could be reset to zero by simply turning the transmitter on and off very quickly, without waiting for a complete boot-up. AFAIK, that problem has never gone away, at least not officially; it's possible Futaba wised up and did a silent firmware upgrade at some point. I sincerely hope they did.

Very expensive "high end" Futaba receivers fail totally in hot weather (start at post #11 if you're impatient):
http://www.flyinggiants.com/forums/f...tml#post442104

Video shows expensive "high end" Futaba receiver failing completely at 65 degrees C (149 deg F) in oven test; silently updated newer version handles higher temps:

http://www.vimeo.com/2668334

Spektrum/Horizon Hobby had a little fun at Futaba's expense with this ad, showing a Spektrum AR9000 continuing to operate at up to 307 deg F (157 deg Celsius):
http://www.spektrumrc.com/Content/Im...lenge_AD_3.pdf

Other interesting Spektrum test results, including 3rd party ones, here:
http://www.spektrumrc.com/DSM/Techno...tisements.aspx

Originally Posted by WTFLYR

If the problems FLB listed have happened (not saying I doubt him, just that I don't want to speak factually about things I've just heard for the first time)

Hopefully the list of links I just provided is pretty good evidence that I didn't just make this stuff up.

If you dig a little deeper, you'll find information on the Zero GUID problem posted by modellers in several countries - England, a slew of other European countries, Canada, the USA, and who knows where else. Rabid Futaba fans will believe there was a global conspiracy, the rest of us will chuckle and realize that the fact is that Futaba screwed up, big time.

Originally Posted by WTFLYR

then I would say that their test protocall is almost nil, to not find some of those issues. "Let's see, turn on the prototype transmitter, servo moves, It's for sale!!!"

Yeah, it's hard to avoid coming to that conclusion, isn't it? I think this is what happens when a company has been losing money hand over fist to a competitor for well over two years, and is desperate to release a new product as fast as possible to stem the fiscal blood-letting. The bean counters and marketing types overrule the engineers who want more time to test and refine the product, and another half-baked gizmo is thrust into the hands of the unsuspecting consumer. This is obviously complete speculation on my part, but it does fit the observed facts rather well.

-Flieslikeabeagle

[flieslikeabeagle]

Originally Posted by init4fun

YANK 51 you OWE beagle an apology ! are you serious ?

No worries, init4fun, the facts speak loud and clear to anyone willing to put even a little effort into following the links I just posted.

-Flieslikeabeagle

[flieslikeabeagle]

Originally Posted by aeajr

Spektrum seems to have targeted the entry level to midrange users in the form of parkflyer pilots and micro heli pilots. Between DX5, DX6, DX6i and DX7 systems, bind and fly and RTFs, I think they practically own that market. There are very few, if any, RTFs featuring Futaba.

There's another side to this. Futaba locked themselves out of the low-cost market with another poor engineering decision.

Remember those Futaba FASST ads that boasted about how Futaba is using a custom integrated circuit for their 2.4 GHz systems, and not an off-the-shelf one? Well, custom chips made in small numbers are almost always much, much, more expensive than mass-produced chips that are made by the millions. Futaba is forced to keep prices high on their receivers, because they're using an expensive, low-volume, custom chip.

Spektrum, meantime, did the smart thing and waited till an inexpensive but powerful 2.4 GHz mass-produced RF chip was on the market. They chip they used for their initial offerings was designed for the new Wireless USB (WUSB) standard, meaning it was intended to be designed into $5 computer keyboards, mice, and other inexpensive peripherals. The chip has to be cheap to be usable in these applications. Horizon/Spektrum can sell the receivers at $40 apiece and still make a fat profit...and they can afford to put the same chips in even lower cost RTF models, and STILL make a profit.

Another thing about custom chips is that, because the cost of redesign and setting up a fab for a new chip design is so high, they also tend to evolve much more slowly than more mainstream, mass produced chips, as Apple Corp found out. By the time Apple finally smelled the coffee and switched first to PowerPC and then to Intel microprocessors, their machines were pathetically slow slugs because the low-volume Motorola microprocessors in them had not evolved as fast as the Intel/x86 family had. Not surprising, since the Intel chips outsold them by a factor of more than ten to one, and Intel also had to fight off competition from AMD, Cypress, Via, and other chip makers. The x86 chips had to evolve or die, so they evolved.

It will be interesting to see how Futaba's 2.4 GHz RC technology evolves (or doesn't) over the next few years. My prediction is that Spektrum's internal technology will continue to evolve and hardware costs will drop rapidly, keeping profit margins high for Spektrum, while Futaba will be stuck with slow technological evolution and stubbornly higher manufacturing costs - unless they quietly ditch their "custom chip", do a 180-degree turn, and switch to using a mass-produced chip, as Spektrum did.

-Flieslikeabeagle

[ATIS]

I have been using a DX7 sine its release...I have had 2 lockouts...both my fault...how can i be sure they were my fault?? Easy, it was windy and my case lid closed on the aerial and snapped it off. Like an idiot I just pushed it back on and went back to flying... the next two flights didnt go too well. Both planes stopped responding once they were 150 yards away. Replaced the aerial and have not had a single issue...not even at SEFF. I have 2 DX7's and have close to 500 flights between them (40 planes on DX7's), I fly sunday mornings and get at least 15 flights in, plus usually get 3 to 5 flights during the week in my backyard. Those 2 times were my only issues and I have hit LVC more then once.

[zaksdad]

I also find the reports of Mass problems with spektrum suspicious as i know dozens of people who fly it and have heard very few complaints in the last couple of years from anyone of these people I know, and lots of them go to large fly-ins.