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Old Jun 10, 2009, 01:09 PM
Who, ME?
dll932's Avatar
Euclid Ohio
Joined May 2005
291 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by martin richards
We've got some short memories here. There were runs on major banks and some went to the wall. That meant there was no liquidity to finance the everyday business of corporations. There were two basic alternatives: let the banks sink and hope it would all sort itself out in the end or prop the banks and industry up in an attempt to minimise the effects of the inevitable crisis. America, along with all the G8 countries, decided on the latter.
That was the situation on inauguration day.
We were left with a horrific mess of major proportions. At this point, no fix will work perfectly or please everybody, and nothing will guaranty success. This is what a bunch of greedy, short-sighted overgrown juvenile delinquents (from various sectors) left us with.
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Old Jun 10, 2009, 01:13 PM
Who, ME?
dll932's Avatar
Euclid Ohio
Joined May 2005
291 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElectRick
It seems that way because it IS that way.

Politicians have learned to say to the voting public, whatever it takes to get them elected, no matter how outrageous it is. There is no reticence anymore whatsoever by any politician to lie, fabricate, take (or change) stands based on finger in the wind instant polling, and generally blow all manner of sunshine up our collective backsides, all in a balls-out effort to gain the power they so crave.

Once in power, all the promises and feel-good populist rhetoric goes right out the window, and they get to work pushing their real agenda. And we don't hold them accountable.

What's even more shameful is that we, the voting public--allow and enable them when we contine to support their acts, defend their mistakes, and even reward their conniving by reelecting them.

We're seeing it with the current president, and we saw it with the last one. There have been others, but these last two have been the worst in recent memory.

Until we ALL decide enough is finally enough, we all deserve what we keep asking for.


Rick
In general I quite agree, but I think the jury's still out on Obama. One thing at least: He sounds more like a president than did GW, and that's important, considering presidents are basically figureheads. Just the idea that we elected a non-white person prez shows the rest of the world that we're finally figuring out how to mature as a country (and a lot of other countries haven't yet).
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Old Jun 10, 2009, 01:17 PM
Cat Rack
MtnGoat's Avatar
Lyle, WA
Joined Dec 2000
1,478 Posts
this is why you get the State out of the mortgage market, and out of fiat currency.
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Old Jun 10, 2009, 01:37 PM
Reduce the drama...
rick.benjamin's Avatar
USA, OR, Damascus
Joined Apr 2004
4,043 Posts
Wow! Do I see altering perceptions?
This is good!

I collect impressions and perceived facts.
I tend to reject hyperbole.

"There werent any WMD!"
"I did not have SEX with that woman"
"We have to define what "is" means".

Behind smoke and mirrors is the TRVTH
Actions mean more than rhetoric.
Past, present actions, point to intent, lend weight to promises.
Unless TRVTH is actionable, it is just "gee-whiz"
Actionable means I can do this about that.

Identify the issue, reduce it
Identify the threat, reduce it.

Personal debt, the neighbor's trash pile, Al Queda, Taliban, N Korea?

It's all about me. Am I the chicken or the pig?
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Last edited by rick.benjamin; Jun 10, 2009 at 01:49 PM.
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Old Jun 10, 2009, 01:48 PM
Registered User
Southern MA. USA
Joined Jan 2003
623 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by rick.benjamin
Wow! It's all about me.

Why are we not surprised !
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Old Jun 10, 2009, 01:49 PM
Reduce the drama...
rick.benjamin's Avatar
USA, OR, Damascus
Joined Apr 2004
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Perfect Summation
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Old Jun 10, 2009, 01:52 PM
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peterp1964's Avatar
Joined Oct 2005
659 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by rick.benjamin
Perfect Summation
what's perfect is your equating a b-j with the killing of hundreds of
thousands of people who did nothing to deserve our dealing them
death and destruction.
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Old Jun 10, 2009, 01:56 PM
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Lyle, WA
Joined Dec 2000
1,478 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by peterp1964
what's perfect is your equating a b-j with the killing of hundreds of
thousands of people who did nothing to deserve our dealing them
death and destruction.
we were already killing hundreds of thousands with sanctions, with your approval. you argued the sanctions were sufficient and that we should not invade.

there was no case in which iraquis would not die. before, we were killing them. now, it is insurgents doing most of it, with a small fraction of accidental collateral damage, and some war crimes, duly and properly prosecuted. the fact is that the total of collateral damages and war crimes damages is dwarfed by the deaths caused by sanctions.
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Old Jun 10, 2009, 02:09 PM
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Jacques Flambeau's Avatar
Backwoods Alabama
Joined May 2000
3,861 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by dll932
In general I quite agree, but I think the jury's still out on Obama. One thing at least: He sounds more like a president than did GW, and that's important, considering presidents are basically figureheads. Just the idea that we elected a non-white person prez shows the rest of the world that we're finally figuring out how to mature as a country (and a lot of other countries haven't yet).
+1.

--Bill
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Old Jun 10, 2009, 02:16 PM
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peterp1964's Avatar
Joined Oct 2005
659 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by MtnGoat
we were already killing hundreds of thousands with sanctions
yeah, we were, and they weren't enough for the culture of life to get its fill of blood...we
just had to have more...and if Bolton says it, we have to have much much more...
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Old Jun 10, 2009, 02:31 PM
Cat Rack
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Lyle, WA
Joined Dec 2000
1,478 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by peterp1964
yeah, we were, and they weren't enough for the culture of life to get its fill of blood...we
just had to have more...and if Bolton says it, we have to have much much more...
didn't you argue to continue the sanctions on the basis that they were sufficient deterrent to Saddam?
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Old Jun 10, 2009, 02:36 PM
Time for me to Fly...
Mr. Wiz's Avatar
United States, MI, Fenton
Joined Jan 2000
8,349 Posts
Sanctions don't kill people. They just force people to make different choices. We are far less culpable for what happened to the people of Iraq (pre war) than they were for having such a leader.
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Old Jun 10, 2009, 02:50 PM
Cat Rack
MtnGoat's Avatar
Lyle, WA
Joined Dec 2000
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it's their fault they had effectively a coup and a dictator that slaughtered all his opponents, wiping out entire tribes and families at a whim, or even the hint of dissent?
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Old Jun 10, 2009, 02:58 PM
Time for me to Fly...
Mr. Wiz's Avatar
United States, MI, Fenton
Joined Jan 2000
8,349 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by MtnGoat
it's their fault they had effectively a coup and a dictator that slaughtered all his opponents, wiping out entire tribes and families at a whim, or even the hint of dissent?

Their situation is a heck a lot more their fault than it is ours. If you want to place more blame on Sadam than his people I'm with you. When you start saying we killed people because of sanctions then we'll part company.

That's like the hostage taker blaming the family for the death of the hostage because they didn't pay the ransom.
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Old Jun 10, 2009, 03:08 PM
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Lyle, WA
Joined Dec 2000
1,478 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Wiz
That's like the hostage taker blaming the family for the death of the hostage because they didn't pay the ransom.
no, it's not. immoral actions chosen freely apportion blame to those who choose them.

I did not say sanctions were wrong, they were the correct step, but they were the West's responsibility for choosing and imposing them.

the point here is that there was no 'no dead Iraqui' options ,and now with the current situation, we have fewer deaths on our moral hands than we did when we justifiably backed sanctions.
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