Discussion FAA ARC Group stuff for Models!

[mongo]

"Got statistics to support that, or is just your opinion without facts ?

Been seeing a lot of those AMA "Black Helicopters" lately?"

i have been at events, AMA sanctioned, where the CD of the event took brand new untested aircraft and test flew them during the event.
now this is something i have never witnessed at an outlaw event.
the local club, 1 town over, had a waivered jet pilot put in a just after take off jet, never even tried to shut down or idle back the motor, and burn 5,000 acres of property, this year.
never seen an outlaw guy do that either.

so who is really "safer"?

[Accu157]

Anyone that has good standards to fly by. I'd hardly call a non-AMA member an outlaw, but yeah, their are idiots out there, and those who make mistakes in judgement. I would hope an established organization would have a regular good standing in safety standards. Accidents and mistakes will happen, but I'd hardly call most model jet pilots amateurs that bought a fancy model and slapped some rules on their back for people to see one hour after they've bought their model. At least in a club or the AMA there is the stronger possibility that pilot is getting the education they need. I'd say there are a lot more AMA member R/C pilots than non-AMA keeping a record of accidents. Mentioning a few terrible accidents and lapses in judgment made by members of the AMA does not carry any dimension to it without a comparison to how many people there are. I've got an idea what you're trying to say mongo... but I'd rather you just say it yourself. Is the AMA no safer than some guys going flying?

[fhhuber506771]

Just as there are a large number of people who "fudge" on the speed limit (commonly by more than 5 mph)

There are AMA members who don't quite follow the safety code "to the letter"

In the case of the speeders, most of the time they don't cause accidents because of it. But sometimes they do.

In the case of AMA safety code violations, most of the time there are no ill effects... but sometimes there are.

The speeders risk getting a ticket, fines and increased insurance rates ... possibly dismemberment or death...

The AMA members who don't follow the safety rules are most often risking loss of a model... self-injury, property damage to whatever the model might hit, injury or deth of a buddy or nearby spectator... loss of insurance coverage (in case of an accident)
And potentially even criminal negligence charges for violating known safety rules... as an AMA member you signed an agreement to follow those rules.

If you see a speeder you have the option to call 911 and report them for appropriate police interception.

If you know of an AMA member who violates the AMA safety code, there is a reporting process.
This is especially important to make the report if a CD is violating the safety code at an event they are running. CDs are supposed to be the examples to the "regular" members.
AMA can, and will, pull the "Contest Director" status of a member who blatantly violates the safety code.
If any AMA member's actions are sufficiently unsafe it is also possible for thier membership to be revoked.

Most of the AMA safety code "rules" are the result of someone causing damage, injury or death due to something that SHOULD HAVE BEEN "common sense.

******************

As for a Turbine model going in "just after takeoff" without "even trying" to reduce throttle...
Some turbines can take over 6 seconds to EVEN BEGIN to "spool down" after throttle has been reduced... he could have hit the engine Kill 3 to 5 sec before impact and it still have been producing full power at impact.

[bwalt822]

Really the options are this:

Dont join the AMA and live with whatever rules are placed upon you and the consequences that can happen for breaking them. You can try to talk to the govt directly but good luck.

If you dont like those rules, join the AMA and fly under theirs.

If you dont like the AMA's rules join anyway and try to get them changed (video piloting for instance)

If you dont like the idea of paying 58 dollars, start your own organization that lets people join for free. You will quickly see that without insurance or a lot of other things that having money enables that you will not be taken seriously by many officials.

[mongo]

fh, this guy had a little over a minute of fighting to get re oriented with the aircraft before it hit the ground, throttling back, might have allowed him to catch up with it and save it. but, alas, when he set his tx down in the pits to watch the fire he started, and made no attempt to put out, the throttle stick was still full up. confirmed by his spotter, he refused to listen/ obey when instructed to "chop the damned throttle".

ok,accu. i will say it, the non members are safer than the members, and have a better track record.
i can think of 3-4 instances where someone was killed by a R/C model while flown by an AMA member at an AMA site, one of which was inside an AMA designed pylon safety cage at the time the pylon racer hit it. i can only find 1 instance of a non member R/C pilot killing someone at any site.

[fhhuber506771]

AMA actually WANTS to get the word out about fatal model accidents... in hopes of preventing a repeat.

So the very few fatal accidents involving AMA members tend to be heard about even by non-members.

There is no system out there for making sure thant fatal model aircraft accidents which do not involve an AMA member get more than local news reports...

And, until reltatively recently, it has been UNCOMMON for people who are not AMA members to be involved with models large enough to where a fatal accident was a serious risk.
(OK.. there was the SFA...)
For a LONG time anyone with enough money that they were flying RC was almost guaranteed to be an AMA member.

And, the non-members WERE more likely to be flying off somewhere that NO ONE IS AROUND FOR THEM TO HIT.
AMA members often fly with groups of other flyers... and in front of large groups of spectators. If there was an accident, they have had more potential to hit someone because there are more "targets" available.

To get to the pylon racing accident you mention, you have to go back several years. (appx 7 to 10.... I forgot when it happened)

Appx 6 to 7 years ago a couple of guys pulling a towline RC model (VERY LARGE) had the stake pull free of the ground, with the stake impaling one of them. (I forgot if the other guy was injured or not) I believe this accident occurred in Europe.

Appx 5 years ago an AMA member lost sight of his model in the sun and hit himself in the chest with it.... in Arizona if I remember correctly.

Appx 4 years ago there was a fatal heli accident. The heli instructor was walking away from the recently soloed student whent he student lost control and the heli nearly decapitated the instructor.
A
ppx 3.5 years ago in Hungary a highly skilled RC flyer lost control of his LARGE model and it killed 2 people.

I have not heard of any fatal RCaircraft accidents since those....

Fatal accidents with model aircraft, fortunately, are rare.

[fhhuber506771]

Appx 1 year ago a couple of motorcyclists were drag racing at night and ran into a barrier cable at an RC flying site... AMA immediately issued a notice to all clubs to get reflective material on any and all barriers acrss driveways/roads or places 4X4/motocross/snowmobilers might hit them.

[fhhuber506771]

E-mail from AMA to members (who signed up for such)

Dear AMA Member:

For the past 12 months, the Academy of Model Aeronautics has taken a proactive role in representing our membership’s model aviation interests and protecting your flying rights by working closely with the FAA on an Aircraft Rules Committee (ARC). The purpose of the ARC was to draft recommendations for regulatory policy for the operation of small unmanned aircraft systems (sUAS) in the National Airspace System (NAS).

This week the FAA released the ARC recommendations to the public, and our goal is to keep our membership informed on the recommendations and progress. Please understand these ARC recommendations are just that, proposed recommendations and not yet policy or Federal regulation.

To help keep our membership informed on rulemaking process and the latest developments, we have created a special section on the AMA Web site for you. Plus, you will be able to submit questions and comments. While there may be other sources of ARC information available to you, the only true source for accurate information is Model Aviation and AMA Web site.

Click here for complete information.

Dave Mathewson
AMA President

[fhhuber506771]

From the AMA site
http://www.modelaircraft.org/faa/PositioningPaper.pdf

Understanding the ARC Recommendations and AMA’s Position.
As you read through the recommendations it’s important to keep in mind that these are the initial
ARC recommendations and are not proposed regulatory language. These ARC recommendations
are only the first step in a relatively long regulatory process. AMA’s position and exceptions to
the recommendations can be found in the yellow highlighted text titled “Alternative View and
Alternative Rationale.”

[bjpaul]

Originally Posted by mongo

"Got statistics to support that, or is just your opinion without facts ?

Been seeing a lot of those AMA "Black Helicopters" lately?"

i have been at events, AMA sanctioned, where the CD of the event took brand new untested aircraft and test flew them during the event.
now this is something i have never witnessed at an outlaw event.
the local club, 1 town over, had a waivered jet pilot put in a just after take off jet, never even tried to shut down or idle back the motor, and burn 5,000 acres of property, this year.
never seen an outlaw guy do that either.

so who is really "safer"?

Of yeah you really proved the point with your two personal observations....... the scientific evidence is just so overwhelming........

[bwalt822]

Originally Posted by mongo

fh, this guy had a little over a minute of fighting to get re oriented with the aircraft before it hit the ground, throttling back, might have allowed him to catch up with it and save it. but, alas, when he set his tx down in the pits to watch the fire he started, and made no attempt to put out, the throttle stick was still full up. confirmed by his spotter, he refused to listen/ obey when instructed to "chop the damned throttle".

ok,accu. i will say it, the non members are safer than the members, and have a better track record.
i can think of 3-4 instances where someone was killed by a R/C model while flown by an AMA member at an AMA site, one of which was inside an AMA designed pylon safety cage at the time the pylon racer hit it. i can only find 1 instance of a non member R/C pilot killing someone at any site.

Because the AMA is a single organization with insurance, they can track statistics on everything while the general flying public does not. Until you can provide accurate statistics on a group that does not keep them then you cannot say one is safer than the other.

[Dadstoysbg]

Mongo, truth is AMA accidents get reported in most cases. Non AMA don't. A CD that brakes the rules at a event can be reported. Non AMA fliers have no control.
Show me one non AMA club or organization that is working with the FAA right now. I can safely bet there are none.
To argue that one is safer then the other is beyond pale. A non-regulated hobby such as ours is doomed to failure. To say that having no rules in place on safety set nationally makes safer pilots boggles the imagination.
What does one pilots mistake have anything to do with the AMA safety code or its work with the FAA. Your comments leave me feeling sorry for you. Dennis Baack AVP Dist. 6

[bwalt822]

Mongo, having rules placed on model aviation isnt even an AMA issue for non AMA members, what are you argueing about?

[Dadstoysbg]

He's telling us that non AMA is safer. Dennis

[bwalt822]

Whether the AMA is safer or not is a moot point, the issue is that there is no one to advocate for the safety record of those not in the AMA.

Those in the AMA have to agree to a safety code that includes points about the airworthiness of our models. The general public have no set of agreed upon rules (except for what is already in the FAR's) so why shouldnt the FAA make the rules for them? Our models can have orders of magnitude more technology in them than 5 years ago with camera systems and now telemetry with eagle tree systems. I have seen an advertisement in a non RC magazine for a full blown camera UAV that lets you program the flight path of the thing from your computer. The only thing that the owner need to do is launch it and reteive it. Now tell me that a full blown UAV marketed to the general public is a good idea? It was something similar to the SkySeer but more glider like.