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Old Jun 29, 2001, 01:12 PM
Visitor from Reality
United States, VA, Arlington
Joined Dec 1996
12,788 Posts
Adam
Sounds like a really good idea if the model can take the weight of the drivetrain and decent nicads.

It's close to a design I have been tinkering with for some time. Brushless are addictive and I fancy another small model that will really fly.

Recall seeing Keith Shaw's well known BearKitty fly on an AF020G and 9 x 800AR, that was a little cracker. No hand launch sag, straight into a 30 deg climbout, and he flew for what I recall as around 8 minutes.

If you can get that much power into the baby 3D, it should act like it looks. It's a little less span - Keith's model was around 36", as I recall - but low AR for plenty of wing. Getting 8 or 9 800AR, or equivalent if something new comes along, into the fuselage might be your biggest challenge.

Regards

Dereck
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Old Jun 29, 2001, 01:48 PM
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Steve McBride's Avatar
Agra, Oklahoma
Joined Feb 2000
5,390 Posts
Certainly no reason not to try. I would be leary about an overly large prop though. Not sure what would be needed on the gearing you have.

I think the reasoning behind the 010 is the size and weight of the motor/ESC system.

I plan for a hacker B20 at 80-100 watts in mine. This at a weight savings over the 020 and a bit heavier then the 010.

Good luck and let us know how it goes!

Steve
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Old Jun 29, 2001, 05:35 PM
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Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Joined Mar 2001
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I would use a 9-5 cam folding prop, and 8 500 mah batteries. i think it should work.
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Old Jun 29, 2001, 10:01 PM
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Kutztown, PA
Joined Feb 2001
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I have been having a dialouge w/Sean Palmer at Aero-Model and he has me interested in the B2015L w/4.1 gear box... looks like I may need to swing an 11x7 propellor for that set up though... here is what MotoCalc says about w/this setup on 8Cells:

Question: can we get 8 800AR's in the Fuse?

===================
MotOpinion - Untitled
512ft above Sea Level, 70F

Motor: Hacker B20 15L; 3704rpm/V; 0.064 Ohms; 0.7A idle.
Battery: Sanyo800AR; 8 cells; 800mAh @ 1.2V; 0.005 Ohms/cell.
Speed Control: Generic Brushless ESC; 0.006 Ohms; High rate.
Drive System: 11x7 Prop 4.1 gear PG; 11x7 (Pconst=1.25; Tconst=0.956) geared 4:1.
Airframe: laser 3D; 277sq.in; 17.6oz; 9.1oz/sq.ft; Cd=0.039; Cl=0.17; Clopt=0.37; Clmax=0.89.
Stats: 152 W/lb in; 117 W/lb out; 17mph stall; 26mph opt @ 58% (21:49); 38mph level @ 83% (10:47); 2551ft/min @ 90; -348ft/min @ -8.7.

Power System Notes:

The full-throttle motor current at the best lift-to-drag ratio airspeed (17.5A) falls between the motor's maximum efficiency current (8.5A) and its current at maximum output (51.7A), thus making effective use of the motor.

Aerodynamic Notes:

The static pitch speed (43mph) is within the range of approximately 2.5 to 3 times the model's stall speed (17mph), which is considered ideal for good performance.
With a wing loading of 9.1oz/sq.ft, a model of this size will have very sedate flying characteristics. It will be suitable for relaxed flying, in calm or very light wind conditions.
The static thrust (29.8oz) to weight (17.6oz) ratio is 1.7:1, which will result in extremely short take-off runs, no difficulty taking off from grass surfaces (assuming sufficiently large wheels), and vertical climb-outs. This model will probably be able to perform a hover or torque roll.
At the best lift-to-drag ratio airspeed, the excess-thrust (17oz) to weight (17.6oz) ratio is 0.97:1, which will give very steep climbs and incredible acceleration. This model can easily do consecutive loops, and has sufficient in-flight thrust for any aerobatic maneuver.

General Notes:

This analysis is based on calculations that take motor heating effects into account.
===================================

Quote:
Originally posted by stevem:
Certainly no reason not to try. I would be leary about an overly large prop though. Not sure what would be needed on the gearing you have.

I think the reasoning behind the 010 is the size and weight of the motor/ESC system.

I plan for a hacker B20 at 80-100 watts in mine. This at a weight savings over the 020 and a bit heavier then the 010.

Good luck and let us know how it goes!

Steve


[This message has been edited by dmccoach (edited 06-29-2001).]
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Old Jun 29, 2001, 11:51 PM
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Joined May 2000
3,335 Posts
I don't think you can possibly get eight 800AR cells in there. The fuselage is really skinny. You'd have to let them hang halfway out under the belly hatch or butcher the fuselage beyond recognition. Also the landing gear on this model doesn't look like it will stand up to that much weight.
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Old Jun 30, 2001, 12:15 AM
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Adam in Toronto's Avatar
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
Joined Mar 2001
402 Posts
Mini Laser 3D with Astro 020

Im thinking of getting the Laser 3D and I have read the other thread in the plane. Someone said that with the 010 they had good performance. Well, im not looking for good performance, im looking for spectacular performance. with the 020 I should almost have unlimited vertical, and the torque to hover and torque roll. I dont think the 31 inch model is out of the 020's size range, because many speed 400 models are this size.

What do you think of my idea? and by the way the 020 is geared 3:1
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Old Jun 30, 2001, 07:06 AM
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United Kingdom, Aberdeen
Joined Sep 2000
12,502 Posts
As Gerald said I doubt there is any easy way to get 8x800ARs in the fuselage as 8x500ARs are a pretty tight fit. You could move the servos behind the wing to make a little more room but you'd still have baance problems then.

One possible and somewhat wacky way might be to build them into the wing, as a flat-pack one cell high and eight wide, but as the wingspar incorporates a span-wide shear web this would need some radical redsign of the spar across the centre section.

Then you come to the undercarriage, which is pretty flimsy in the stock model and would need to be beefed up to carry the landing loads of the heavier model.
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Old Jun 30, 2001, 08:26 AM
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Steve McBride's Avatar
Agra, Oklahoma
Joined Feb 2000
5,390 Posts
Prop for 10x600AE and about 12 amps and you should get good performance on cells that fit.

Good luck!

Steve
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Old Jun 30, 2001, 09:35 AM
Registered User
Kutztown, PA
Joined Feb 2001
372 Posts
Guys, can you get 10 600 cells in it?

Also, what's the gear ratio on the AS 010?


Her's a new MotoCalc approach w/8600AEcells:
===========================================
MotOpinion - Laser3DHacker15L
512ft above Sea Level, 70F

Motor: Hacker B20 15L; 3704rpm/V; 0.064 Ohms; 0.7A idle.
Battery: Sanyo 600AE; 8 cells; 600mAh @ 1.2V; 0.01 Ohms/cell.
Speed Control: Generic Brushless ESC; 0.006 Ohms; High rate.
Drive System: 10x6Prop 4.1 gear; 10x6 (Pconst=1.11; Tconst=0.956) geared 4.1:1.
Airframe: Laser 3D; 277sq.in; 16.6oz; 8.6oz/sq.ft; Cd=0.039; Cl=0.17; Clopt=0.37; Clmax=0.89.
Stats: 97 W/lb in; 82 W/lb out; 16mph stall; 25mph opt @ 71% (16:12); 37mph level @ 101% (8:55); 1262ft/min @ 34.5; -338ft/min @ -8.7.

Power System Notes:

The full-throttle motor current at the best lift-to-drag ratio airspeed (9.6A) falls between the motor's maximum efficiency current (9.2A) and its current at maximum output (61.4A), thus making effective use of the motor.

Aerodynamic Notes:

The static pitch speed (40mph) is within the range of approximately 2.5 to 3 times the model's stall speed (16mph), which is considered ideal for good performance.
With a wing loading of 8.6oz/sq.ft, a model of this size will have very sedate flying characteristics. It will be suitable for relaxed flying, in calm or very light wind conditions.
The static thrust (19.9oz) to weight (16.6oz) ratio is 1.2:1, which will result in extremely short take-off runs, no difficulty taking off from grass surfaces (assuming sufficiently large wheels), and vertical climb-outs. This model will probably be able to perform a hover or torque roll.
At the best lift-to-drag ratio airspeed, the excess-thrust (9.3oz) to weight (16.6oz) ratio is 0.56:1, which will give steep climbs and excellent acceleration. This model should be able to do consecutive loops, and has sufficient in-flight thrust for almost any aerobatic maneuver.

General Notes:

This analysis is based on calculations that take motor heating effects into account.
======================================

Quote:
Originally posted by stevem:
Prop for 10x600AE and about 12 amps and you should get good performance on cells that fit.

Good luck!

Steve


[This message has been edited by dmccoach (edited 06-30-2001).]
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Old Jun 30, 2001, 10:03 AM
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Texas
Joined Aug 1999
5,110 Posts
Adam,

The wingspan is about the same as an s400 plane, but that does not mean this plane can handle it. I have a 48" wing on my Spider and it will not take a geared 020. There are more things to consider other than the wing size.

The geared 020 is much heavier than the stock s280. In addition, the 020 needs a beefier 9 or 10 cell pack. That too will add extra weight. All that combined it going to raise the wing loading and that may offset any gains from the extra power since this plane was engineered as a lightweight flyer.

Given that, the only way that you will ever know if it will work or is to give is a shot.

Dave
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Old Jun 30, 2001, 10:24 AM
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Kutztown, PA
Joined Feb 2001
372 Posts
Guys, MotoCalc suggests that the AS010 may be best for this airplane as Direct Drive (this is w/10 cells)... here are two outputs one direct and w/2.3 gear (and I don't know the AS 010 stock gear ratio):
==========================================
MotOpinion - Laser3D AS 010 Direct
512ft above Sea Level, 70F

Motor: Astro Brushless 010 16T#25; 2000rpm/V; 0.4 Ohms; 0.15A idle.
Battery: Sanyo 600AE; 10 cells; 600mAh @ 1.2V; 0.01 Ohms/cell.
Speed Control: Generic Brushless ESC; 0.006 Ohms; High rate.
Drive System: Direct Drive; 7x4 (Pconst=1.11; Tconst=0.956) direct drive.
Airframe: Laser 3D; 277sq.in; 15.8oz; 8.2oz/sq.ft; Cd=0.039; Cl=0.17; Clopt=0.37; Clmax=0.89.
Stats: 128 W/lb in; 71 W/lb out; 16mph stall; 25mph opt @ 55% (17:36); 36mph level @ 78% (8:26); 928ft/min @ 25.3; -330ft/min @ -8.7.

Power System Notes:

The full-throttle motor current at the best lift-to-drag ratio airspeed (11.2A) falls between the motor's maximum efficiency current (2A) and its current at maximum output (13.5A), thus making effective use of the motor.

Aerodynamic Notes:

The static pitch speed (46mph) is within the range of approximately 2.5 to 3 times the model's stall speed (16mph), which is considered ideal for good performance.
With a wing loading of 8.2oz/sq.ft, a model of this size will have very sedate flying characteristics. It will be suitable for relaxed flying, in calm or very light wind conditions.
The static thrust (12.6oz) to weight (15.8oz) ratio is 0.8:1, which will result in very short take-off runs, no difficulty taking off from grass surfaces (assuming sufficiently large wheels), and steep climb-outs.
At the best lift-to-drag ratio airspeed, the excess-thrust (7.2oz) to weight (15.8oz) ratio is 0.45:1, which will give steep climbs and excellent acceleration. This model should be able to do consecutive loops, and has sufficient in-flight thrust for almost any aerobatic maneuver.

General Notes:

This analysis is based on calculations that take motor heating effects into account.
==========================================
MotOpinion - Laser3D AS010 2.3Gear
512ft above Sea Level, 70F

Motor: Astro Brushless 010 16T#25; 2000rpm/V; 0.4 Ohms; 0.15A idle.
Battery: Sanyo 600AE; 10 cells; 600mAh @ 1.2V; 0.01 Ohms/cell.
Speed Control: Generic Brushless ESC; 0.006 Ohms; High rate.
Drive System: AS 010 2.3 Gear w/8x4; 8x4 (Pconst=1.11; Tconst=0.956) geared 2.3:1.
Airframe: Laser 3D; 277sq.in; 15.8oz; 8.2oz/sq.ft; Cd=0.039; Cl=0.17; Clopt=0.37; Clmax=0.89.
Stats: 51 W/lb in; 42 W/lb out; 16mph stall; 25mph opt @ 100% (20:59); 36mph level @ 101% (20:46); 3ft/min @ 0.1; -330ft/min @ -8.7.

Possible Power System Problems:

The full-throttle motor current at the best lift-to-drag ratio airspeed (1.6A) is lower than the motor's maximum efficiency current (2.1A). A higher current level would improve system efficiency.
Current can be increased by using more cells, a larger diameter or higher pitched propeller, a lower gear ratio, or some combination of these methods.

Possible Aerodynamic Problems:

The static pitch speed (32mph) is less than 2.5 times the stall speed (16mph), which may result in reduced performance at typical flying speeds and a low maximum speed. This situation is usually acceptable for an electric sailplane or other slow-flying model.
Pitch speed can be increased by using a higher pitched and/or smaller diameter propeller, a lower gear ratio, a higher cell count, or some combination of these methods.

Aerodynamic Notes:

With a wing loading of 8.2oz/sq.ft, a model of this size will have very sedate flying characteristics. It will be suitable for relaxed flying, in calm or very light wind conditions.
The static thrust (10oz) to weight (15.8oz) ratio is 0.63:1, which will result in short take-off runs, and no difficulty taking off from grass surfaces (assuming sufficiently large wheels).
At the best lift-to-drag ratio airspeed, the excess-thrust (0.6oz) to weight (15.8oz) ratio is 0.04:1, which will give very slow climbs and poor acceleration. Careful piloting will be required to maintain altitude.

General Notes:

This analysis is based on calculations that take motor heating effects into account.

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Old Jun 30, 2001, 10:44 AM
Registered User
Kutztown, PA
Joined Feb 2001
372 Posts
Here is some 020 data (10 cells too)

MotOpinion - Laser3 AS 020 Geared 3.3 (per AS site)
512ft above Sea Level, 70F

Motor: Astro Brushless 020 7T#22 #802; 3085rpm/V; 0.145 Ohms; 0.7A idle.
Battery: Sanyo 600AE; 10 cells; 600mAh @ 1.2V; 0.01 Ohms/cell.
Speed Control: Generic Brushless ESC; 0.006 Ohms; High rate.
Drive System: AS 020 3.3 Gear 8x5 Prop 3.3 gear; 8x5 (Pconst=1.11; Tconst=0.956) geared 3.3:1.
Airframe: Laser 3D; 277sq.in; 18.1oz; 9.4oz/sq.ft; Cd=0.039; Cl=0.17; Clopt=0.37; Clmax=0.89.
Stats: 75 W/lb in; 60 W/lb out; 17mph stall; 26mph opt @ 74% (15:43); 39mph level @ 101% (9:37); 722ft/min @ 18.1; -353ft/min @ -8.7.

Possible Power System Problems:

The full-throttle motor current at the best lift-to-drag ratio airspeed (6.7A) is lower than the motor's maximum efficiency current (6.9A). A higher current level would improve system efficiency.
Current can be increased by using more cells, a larger diameter or higher pitched propeller, a lower gear ratio, or some combination of these methods.

Aerodynamic Notes:

The static pitch speed (44mph) is within the range of approximately 2.5 to 3 times the model's stall speed (17mph), which is considered ideal for good performance.
With a wing loading of 9.4oz/sq.ft, a model of this size will have very sedate flying characteristics. It will be suitable for relaxed flying, in calm or very light wind conditions.
The static thrust (13.2oz) to weight (18.1oz) ratio is 0.73:1, which will result in very short take-off runs, no difficulty taking off from grass surfaces (assuming sufficiently large wheels), and steep climb-outs.
At the best lift-to-drag ratio airspeed, the excess-thrust (6.1oz) to weight (18.1oz) ratio is 0.34:1, which will give strong climbs and rapid acceleration. This model will most likely readily loop from level flight, and have sufficient in-flight thrust for many aerobatic maneuvers.

General Notes:

This analysis is based on calculations that take motor heating effects into account.

Quote:
Originally posted by dave_lilley:
Adam,

The wingspan is about the same as an s400 plane, but that does not mean this plane can handle it. I have a 48" wing on my Spider and it will not take a geared 020. There are more things to consider other than the wing size.

The geared 020 is much heavier than the stock s280. In addition, the 020 needs a beefier 9 or 10 cell pack. That too will add extra weight. All that combined it going to raise the wing loading and that may offset any gains from the extra power since this plane was engineered as a lightweight flyer.

Given that, the only way that you will ever know if it will work or is to give is a shot.

Dave
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Old Jun 30, 2001, 11:13 AM
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Texas
Joined Aug 1999
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I wonder about your analysis tools. Several owners of this plane report that it is an excellent flyer on it's stock configuration and that's only a ~s280/300.

Quote:
Edwin
Member
Posts: 24
From:Rotterdam, The Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2001
posted 06-14-2001 08:48
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi scott,
I am flying the mini laser 3d for 3 months now.
Is it an great little plane.
Flown her with 7 cells 500Mah and performance was great.
Recently bought some 8 cell 500Mah packs and hand launch her vertically now!!!
I can really recommend this plane.
It is not difficult to fly and slows down nicely when landing.
Yust no bad habbits on this plane.

cheers,

Edwin
Quote:
tim hooper
Senior Member
Posts: 1039
From:Telford, UK
Registered: Feb 2000
posted 06-14-2001 09:50
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Scott C:

Anyone flying this model? Any input?
Thanks,
Scott
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

S'funny you should ask!

I was at the field last night, when a member showed up with one of these. I'd never seen one before in the flesh, but only seen pictures.

It's a beautifully manufactured little kit, with interlocking construction and motor included. I intiially thought the UK price of 70 was a bit high, until I recalled that depron Sukhoi I bought for 80 (+30 for the motor).

As for flying, what can I say? Fully aerobatic; 4-point rolls, square loops, tailslides, rolling circles.....it's on The List, lads!

tim
Quote:
Edwin
Member
Posts: 24
From:Rotterdam, The Netherlands
Registered: Feb 2001
posted 05-10-2001 01:35
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi all,
My laser is the mini version.

Flown her yesterday evening and man this plane is HOT!
I hand launcher her with an little uptrim, trust me that is not nessesary!
She took off almost vertical.
Throttled back and she cruised around, did not need to trim anything.
It was still windy and the little plane suffers alot from wind but she kept on flying.
The roll rate is awsome!
I covered mine like the picture and can tell you now that it is hard to tell if she is upside down or not.
So you really have to pay attention when flying this little plane.

All i can say after 3 flights is that i like it alot.
Did try an knife-edge once and that was also great but the wind came up again and i had to stop.
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Old Jun 30, 2001, 11:23 AM
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hanford,ca,usa
Joined Oct 2000
227 Posts
hey dan i should have the fuse framed by tomorow eve. got some loose cells i let you know what to fit, 11" prop hungh? well maybe we should go with a bit taller ld. gear and a bit heavier gauge!...john
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Old Jun 30, 2001, 11:44 AM
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Kutztown, PA
Joined Feb 2001
372 Posts
John, let's plan on 10" Prop potentially... still not sure what power system, but I am certain the stock gear box is unacceptable.

Quote:
Originally posted by johnpmartins:
hey dan i should have the fuse framed by tomorow eve. got some loose cells i let you know what to fit, 11" prop hungh? well maybe we should go with a bit taller ld. gear and a bit heavier gauge!...john
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