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Old Sep 13, 2009, 04:03 PM
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Ralf: Actually, eventually the landings are going to be 1/2 M. So it would have to be very accuarate. I'm not sure that kind of accuracy is available. I could be wrong though.
Bernd: I have been thinking about aerotow. However, with everything else going on that's as far as I've gotten, just thinking. I would have to do a bit more research before I could make a decision.
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Old Sep 13, 2009, 06:09 PM
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Copper done

It took a bit of doing but I finished my Copper at the ESL contest.
Since there were 15 rounds (one 8, one 7 and the rest 10 min) over two days, getting the 5 min tasks and the landings went quickly. Chuck Pinnell (#21) also got started on his Copper. It did take me three days from the start (on Friday the 30 min flights). Today I got one 15 min before the contest, and one and landing during the 1/2 hour lunch break (with some cooperation from the CD).
Form will be in the mail tomorrow, so now on to Bronze. Might take me a week or so, since witnesses will likely be out on the weekends this time.

Doing it all slope will be fun.

I did notice that the TD/to slope was sort of backwards, but unless those who have done the Bronze slope tasks agree, I guess it can't be changed. Slope is usually double the TD task. If at all possible, I would not give out any Silver sheets until that is fixed. I didn't see anyone doing silver yet.

Also, I am a bit confuse as to what the Basic and A1 means
2- 10 MINUTE TIMED FLIGHTS (BASIC)

Does it mean you land at exactly 10 min anywhere on the field?

OR 2- 15 MINUTE SLOPE FLIGHTS (A1) ??


Tom
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Old Sep 13, 2009, 06:39 PM
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3 days to do Copper? And now a week to do Bronze?

I'm NOT going to send in my sheet,now. or anytime in the future as the more I think about it,the more I have a mouth full of vinigar.

Now that this program is given the thumb's up by the LSF Exec ,I can see that it is about to be flooded by upper LSF member's with their high tech and high $$ ship's. it.

Don't get me wrong,it's a great program(Steve,youve done a hell of a job!!)and I WILL continue,just as a silent(non-existent)member.

Welcometo the LSF part 2 everyone
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Old Sep 13, 2009, 07:28 PM
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So one guy who happens to be a LSF V makes short work of Copper and some people are sticking there heads in the sand? Oh, Steve has not seen the form and validated it, yet.
I meet Tom at the NATs this year, not only is he a nice guy but a pretty darn good pilot ( did better than I did in 2M and Unlimited, manage to get his 2 hour in to boot!) as well but his skills are not chasing me off!!! His skills are a challange to me to do better!
Good job Tom! So how much free time do you have to spend soaring? Can I borrow some?
Good Luck on Bronze and the one week prediction, he, he....

Joe
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Old Sep 13, 2009, 08:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Boone
Ralf: Actually, eventually the landings are going to be 1/2 M. So it would have to be very accuarate. I'm not sure that kind of accuracy is available. I could be wrong though.
Agreed, but if the GPS is not accurate enough then the landing won't be close enough so what harm is there in allowing it. The pilot would have to make sure the GPS was accurate enough. If the GPS drifted, the chance of hitting the landing would be nearly zero.

One issue with altimeters - the ones I have can easily be faked. The data can be saved and edited to show anything you want. The SkyTraceGPS has a time stamp on every second and a hash code that is impossible to fake. When the data is read it will detect any tampering.
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Old Sep 13, 2009, 08:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L-Spatz
3 days to do Copper? And now a week to do Bronze?

I'm NOT going to send in my sheet,now. or anytime in the future as the more I think about it,the more I have a mouth full of vinigar.

Now that this program is given the thumb's up by the LSF Exec ,I can see that it is about to be flooded by upper LSF member's with their high tech and high $$ ship's. it.

Don't get me wrong,it's a great program(Steve,youve done a hell of a job!!)and I WILL continue,just as a silent(non-existent)member.

Welcometo the LSF part 2 everyone
I think it's great! It shows that the SSP is about flying skill while the LSF is about having enough time and money. I have a demanding job and two you children. I have no way to know ahead of time when I will be able to fly. So, I can't go to contests or drive 100's of miles to a slope. Does this mean I'm not as good a sailplane pilot? I don't care to kiss the ring or join the club, I just want a goal when I fly.
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Old Sep 13, 2009, 08:47 PM
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[QUOTE=Thermaler]So one guy who happens to be a LSF V makes short work of Copper and some people are sticking there heads in the sand? .....

Thanks Joe...

By the way. It took me a couple years to get to LSF level IV and nearly 8 months to get to Gold Canadian (I blew one XC task 4 years ago and still haven't finished Diamond). It took me 5 years to get from IV to V. And I did 90% of it with an old 100" Gemini RES plane. I had been flying only a year or so when I started doing LSF. I'd be doing the same thing even if I didn't have a nice molded plane. (My 8 hr was with a Bubble Dancer)
I've now been flying 12 years (and am over 60) so you young guys have a real advantage. I'm sure there are some 10 or so year old kids like Lee and Josh Glabb, Jr that could give some a run for their money. It didn't bother me that there were over 120 level V's when I started. Any of whom could have done the same thing I did -- some of whom did it twice.

I think even Copper helps hone ones skills. I enjoy the challenge. I'm just not one of those people who goes out with a high-start and flies for a few minutes and is done for the day. Challenges like this, I guess, are just not for everybody. Though the only way I know to get better at anything is to do it , do it , do it and keep doing it. I have yet to get a first place expert at an ESL contest. That requires being within a few points off perfect, and I doubt I will ever get there. I really admire those that have done it time and time again. I will still enjoy flying with them, even if I'm in last place.

Tom
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Old Sep 13, 2009, 09:46 PM
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As I recall, LSF LI was no big deal to complete either and I was new to soaring. LII was no biggie either except the contest stuff which I haven't been able to do. (personal reasons) IMHO the tasks through LIV are not that big of a deal. It's the contests that make up the LSF program's difficulty. Now before anyone starts jumpin' my butt because I dared to say that, take a look at the task portion of LIV. 1 1hr TD flight, a 4 hr slope flight and a 2 k G&R. It's really not that bad until you get to the contest requirements.
The problem with the SSP is that it wasn't started as a program. Then it was suggested that it become a program. Now the original idea was to make up 2 or 3 levels and as a group try them, rate them and make changes as the group saw fit until the program developed completely. Then release the final version of the program. Most of the people joining now seem to think this is a completed program and all they have to do is join and give it a go. In reality it's a program in developement and already we have seen the need for changes to Copper level. The slope portion needs to be harder. Now that so many are participating it's harder still to get an answer on what everyone would like to see happen. Some are ready to pull out if we make changes to a level they've started, some still understand what we're trying to do and want to make the changes. Some want to know what all of the other levels consist of. Well to be honest, there are no other levels beyond Copper any more. I've had all of the forms pulled from the site and they will stay that way for a short time. When they do come back they will be all "new & improved". There are 3 other people besides myself that have started on Bronze and we all agreed that we need to fix the program before we move on any further. If it means tougher tasks and more of them so be it. It's just that much more of a challenge and that much more fun we get to have. It means no more trying to show people sample forms and having them print them out before a level is complete and taking them as gospel. The whole point of the SSP was to take a bunch of guys who wanted to "just have some fun" and BUILD a task oriented program that would be difficult and yet fun.
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Old Sep 13, 2009, 09:57 PM
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Well said Steve. Glad to help get this program on its feet and at a sufficient amount of difficulty for each level, even if that means I can't work on Bronze for a while. I would gladly redo copper if that helped the program grow.

I 100% agree with you that the long pole on the LSF tasks is the competitions. I am also a Level II and currently have only one competition completed with the second one being done the coming weekend.

Tom, welcome to the program. Not suprised that you got through copper quickly. Jealous that i can't fly as much either.
Cory
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Old Sep 13, 2009, 10:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph Weaver
I think it's great! It shows that the SSP is about flying skill while the LSF is about having enough time and money.
Both programs require time which is precious to all of us. Some in both programs have more than others.
Money on the other hand does not compensate for the lack of time put in to it.
I would put my much cherished Super Esprit up to prove what I am about to type:
Take the top 100 guys in the world and give them Oly II's and they will remain the top 100 guys because they put the time in to learn how to FLY, i.e. they have developed the skill needed to win.
Hey, that is what both programs are about
Right now my $1400 Victor is seeing less air time than my $300 Aquila XL. Heck my Wanderer 72 has seen more air time than the Victor in the last month!!!! Granted we have only had three good weekends out of the last 6 and I had to work the last one
It will get air time this weekend Dave

Thank You for calling me one of the younger guys Tom, some days I do feel 51 but most of the time it is closer to 31

Joe
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Old Sep 14, 2009, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Boone
Now before anyone starts jumpin' my butt becasue I dared to say that, take a look at the task portion of LIV. 1 1hr TD flight, a 4 hr slope flight and a 2 k G&R. It's really not that bad until you get to the contest requirements.
Have you ever flown a 2K goal and return?

Interestingly I also know several guys stuck on the 1 hour thermal flights for LSF4.

Me personally I attempted the 2K goal and return at least a dozen times over 4 years.

I do agree that if you take just the non contest tasks of the SAP and compare it to the SSP that the SSP is more difficult. And I think the level of complexity/difficulty is a good thing.

Ryan
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Old Sep 14, 2009, 09:06 AM
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Steve and I did my 1K G&R which could have easily been a 3K.
I have walked the distance we covered flying my Super Esprit but when Steve said "jump in" I could not resist.
Tried to make it a 45 minute flight but only made it to 28 and change.

Could have made an hour easy with my Aquila XL at 2300' but right after the Pic told me the altitude it also said the battery was at 4.9 volts. Still got 39 for the 30 minute for the LSF.


Joe
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Old Sep 14, 2009, 09:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Boone
Here's the proposed changes I would like to make in Copper Level.
No changes to TD
slope:
2-15 min flights
2-15 min flights w/3m landings
2-30 min flights
2-30 min flights w/3m landings
2-45 min flights
2-45 min flights w/3m landings
d flat said it was too easy. My hats off to you Cory for understanding and being willing to go that extra mile to make this program challenging and successful.
That looks good. The landing task on a slope will be tricky for a lot of people. Does catching the plane count? We don't have landing areas on a lot of our slopes. I'm sure we can put a flag on a bush somewhere if need be : )
You will obviously be getting good participation, so waiting and working out the tasks will be a good thing. Just don't loose momentum. If there's anything I can help with, let me know. I do like the way you have the sheet laid out with the "or" in the middle. You do need to have a place for the full name and address of the participant, rather than just the name and #. Keep up the good work.

Tom
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Old Sep 14, 2009, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thermaler
Steve and I did my 1K G&R which could have easily been a 3K.
I have walked the distance we covered flying my Super Esprit but when Steve said "jump in" I could not resist.
Tried to make it a 45 minute flight but only made it to 28 and change.

Could have made an hour easy with my Aquila XL at 2300' but right after the Pic told me the altitude it also said the battery was at 4.9 volts. Still got 39 for the 30 minute for the LSF.
Joe
4.9 is a very good charge. The pic will give you the lowest voltage under load. Unless it says 4.5 volts, you are probably still just fine. Remember, the battery will stay at it's nominal voltage of 4.8 volts for a long time. Best to take several readings with plane flying level and not under load to get an accurate estimate. I used a 4500 mA battery for my 8 hr and it only took 1800 mA to recharge it. The pic reported varying voltages from 4.6 to 5 volts.

T
T
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Old Sep 14, 2009, 10:15 AM
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I sure hope catching is allowed for the slope landing precision tasks. Future tasks will require flying a better sailplane and I would definately prefer to catch it. Part of the requirement should be that the sailplane does not cause bodily harm when catching it

Steve, does this mean I have to redo my copper? I was only bluffing man....

Agree with Thermaler's comments on the best are the best regardless what they fly. I have seen Joe Wurts fly a pig in a thermal competition and still kick butt. One thing to note though, more expensive, full house ships are easier for me to land than my rudder elevator DLG. Not that it can't be done, just easier for me to use the technology already available in my quiver of sailplanes.

One of the great equalizers in the program is that everyone has to do a goal and return at the higher levels, regardless of whether you are on the slope or thermal slide. I hope that stays in place while we re-wicker the upper level tasks.
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