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Old Apr 15, 2009, 06:36 PM
founder of the SSP
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Walkerton, Indiana
Joined Jul 2004
1,554 Posts
Anyone know how long it takes something like an Easy Glider to get to 600'? For that matter, what do you have and how long would it take you to get your plane there? I want this to be a reasonable time.
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Of course I care and want feedback. The thread has been so quiet that I'm starting to think everyone's losing interest. So I decided the best thing to do was get this program laid out so people can start using it. So I took the suggestions I've received (here, PM's and e-mail) and put them to use. Anything and everything will be open for debate next year at the latest at the one year evaluation. Some things can still be tweeked as nobody has finished Copper Level yet. Copper Level however is frozen already.
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The accidental thing is because that if someone accidently switches power on it would be considered a power flight. I know a short burst would be a bad thing not good. However, if you say it's ok then it opens a whole can of worms I'm not willing to battle or debate. I don't have an electric sailplane (yet) but I do fly electric planes and heli's and I have to say I've never had one power up for no reason. If I did, I would be looking for the problem and a solution because that would be a safety issue I couldn't live with. I don't mean that to sound harsh or as if I don't want an opinion that doesn't agree with mine. It's just there has to be a line somewhere.
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Old Apr 15, 2009, 07:42 PM
Torn 'twixt buildin' and flyin
TheNightowl's Avatar
United States, TX, Austin
Joined Oct 2007
7,236 Posts
Uh... I'm just quiet 'cause I've been busy with working, filing taxes at the last minute, and all the usual stuff that goes with April. Had a combination good day and bad day with my Riser wing. Stupid wing panels didn't match, but I have them now where they will (after much, much trial fitting braces and cutting a couple of new ribs to replace the ones I broke out because they were at the wrong angles at the joint.) I've got to get it FINISHED to fly it and get started. (I honestly thought I would have it done by last weekend, but life kind of got in the way.)

Nightowl
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Old Apr 15, 2009, 07:52 PM
I'm all about that bass
rdwoebke's Avatar
United States, IN, Indianapolis
Joined Feb 2004
15,316 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Boone
Anyone know how long it takes something like an Easy Glider to get to 600'?
Stock EZ Glider with the brushed motor and nickel packs might never get there without a themal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Boone
For that matter, what do you have and how long would it take you to get your plane there? I want this to be a reasonable time.

I have a 40 inch span converted hand launch model with a CDROM motor, an Allegro Lite with an A20-20, and a Paragon with an Astro 035 (brushed motor).

I think the A20-20 Allegro might climb to 600 feet in perhaps a minute? I have an altimeter and can check it out if you really want me to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Boone
I don't have an electric sailplane (yet) but I do fly electric planes and heli's and I have to say I've never had one power up for no reason. If I did, I would be looking for the problem and a solution because that would be a safety issue I couldn't live with.

I guess I suck because most of my models will occasionaly turn the prop. Even at the AMA nats the CD said that if a pilot had a glitch or the prop started to freeweel that is OK as long as it is not intentional. Sometimes this happens because of a glitch. If none of your models have servos that never occasionally twitch then you are a better man than I! So if you have ever had a glider where occasionally you might get a kind of so fast control surface jump that you barely notice it, imagine on a speed controller that quick movement would cause the motor to fire on for just an instant.

Since you are not an e glider pilot (yet I guess) I'll fill you in on a secret. The prop is occasoinally likely to suddenly pinwheel because after 2 seconds or so the brake stops. So say you cut the motor, then glide for a while, under certian circumstances you can get the prop to flip out and pinwheel again. Perhaps a deep stall might do it or high speed then pulling flaps. Or a dive and then leveling out. Now, if the prop starts pinwheeling, it won't just stop. To stop it you have to do a sharp stall (difficult) or just give a tiny blip of throttle for an instant and then go back to no throttle and that re-engages the brake.

Ryan
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Old Apr 15, 2009, 08:04 PM
turn, turn, turn.
Athol, Massachusetts
Joined Oct 2005
10,495 Posts
Yep....A glitch will spin the prop....happens all the time.
Especially on final when the plane is heading directly towards you.

I ignore it.
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Old Apr 15, 2009, 08:37 PM
founder of the SSP
Steve Boone's Avatar
Walkerton, Indiana
Joined Jul 2004
1,554 Posts
Servos moving I've had no biggie. Motors starting up nope. However, remember I don't normally cruise around with them off either. Heck I'm lucky if I remember to turn them off when I hit the ground. I'll leave it open for a bit of debate. So chime in guys.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdwoebke
Stock EZ Glider with the brushed motor and nickel packs might never get there without a themal.
Now that's just funny! I don't care who you are. Would everyone think 60 seconds would be more fair?
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Old Apr 15, 2009, 08:39 PM
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United States, FL, Sun City Center
Joined Oct 2005
359 Posts
I agree with the "invisible winch" idea. It's what I had in mind all along. Anything else is powered flight. I guess that makes me a "semi-purist". ;-)

I've watched the serious competition guys doing zoom launches off of a club winch, and it's very impressive. I've never gotten any of my sailplanes that high on a hi-start launch. My electric Lil' Bird won't stand a chance in 30 sec.

My point is that no two launching methods are the same. The old guard/competition guys need to be assurred that electric launches don't exceed 600 ft., demanding the use of an onboard logger to keep them honest. How do we know that their winch launches aren't exceeding 600 ft.? What's to keep them honest?

I don't think it's fair to require monitoring of a single segment of any group. If we're going to require them, they should be required across the board, regardless of the chosen launching method.

The expense of the loggers is another issue. I don't have that kind of extra play money in the cookie jar, and I suspect that a lot of others don't either. However, if our group agrees to require them of everyone, I suppose I can scrape up the cash. Perhaps we could arrange a group discount if it comes to that?

Thom
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Old Apr 15, 2009, 08:50 PM
I'm all about that bass
rdwoebke's Avatar
United States, IN, Indianapolis
Joined Feb 2004
15,316 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Boone
Servos moving I've had no biggie. Motors starting up nope. However, remember I don't normally cruise around with them off either.
That is why you have never had that happen. The motors won't just fire up until you arm them. To arm them you have to go from full throttle for 2 seconds to zero throttle for 2 seconds. But once they are armed (aka you used them to climb the plane) they can pop back on with any glitch that would move the servos like that...

Ryan
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Old Apr 15, 2009, 08:50 PM
founder of the SSP
Steve Boone's Avatar
Walkerton, Indiana
Joined Jul 2004
1,554 Posts
No loggers here. The idea I'm considering for loggers is so that it could act as a witness for those who fly alone. Not for people with a witness. I for one do a lot of flying alone as I don't work. It would be nice to possibly be able to use those flights. It's just an idea and probably would be frowned on by others. The time and altitude restrictions are to keep guys from powering to 2000' feet or powering around until they find lift and then going "power down" to get their flight. It can't simply be a "free for all" or it won't work. I do agree that I've seen some huge launches with composite ships that were over 600'. What I'm trying to find is a good middle ground that makes the majority of people happy.
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Ok, I'm off for the rest of the night. My show is coming on. Yes, I'm a LOST fan. Even though I'm still not sure why.
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Old Apr 15, 2009, 09:00 PM
I'm all about that bass
rdwoebke's Avatar
United States, IN, Indianapolis
Joined Feb 2004
15,316 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Speedo125
I don't think it's fair to require monitoring of a single segment of any group. If we're going to require them, they should be required across the board, regardless of the chosen launching method.
That is why my suggestion has always been just let folks run the motor for a minute. If somebody wants to motor up to 2,000 feet, who cares? Same for if somebody wants to string out 1,000 feet of winch line (and then zoom)....

You still have all these technical tasks like 1 hour flights that terminate within 1 meters, 20-25-30 minute ladders, .etc..
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Old Apr 15, 2009, 10:35 PM
Proud member of LISF and ESL
LI, New York, USA
Joined Mar 2003
24,555 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Boone
Anyone know how long it takes something like an Easy Glider to get to 600'? For that matter, what do you have and how long would it take you to get your plane there? I want this to be a reasonable time.
[CENTER.
Depends on the set-up. My Easy Glider will break 600 feet within 30 seconds.
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Old Apr 16, 2009, 10:21 AM
SSP#1
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United States, MO, Louisburg
Joined Apr 2007
653 Posts
Started on my copper level tasks yesterday, was out at the field perfect afternoon. Got my fist task out of the way went on to the second, no problem had to relaunch and land, landed short of my mark second attempt we did it. Went on to my 15 min flight changed planes and forgot to reset the timer for my second plane, it was set to 10 min not 15 oops. Thought that flight seemed alittle short and it was by only 1:32 seconds, oh well theres always the next time, maybe this afternoon if i can get outta work early enough and the weather cooperates.

Have a great day
Steve
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Old Apr 16, 2009, 11:10 AM
Making wood fly since 2007
Windependence's Avatar
USA, MN, Rochester
Joined Mar 2008
2,542 Posts
Boy this does not seem like that big of a problem to me. Simply put, launch your e-powered plane like you would a string launched one. Fly straight away and up until you believe you are somewhat close to 600' plus or minus 100', then shut off the motor. You are probably going to launch into the wind just like the winch guys. There it is, level playing field. You will have a very, very hard time preventing people from cheating if that is what they want to do.

Personal honesty and integrity play a huge part in this. If it takes your plane 90 seconds to get up to "standard launch height" fine, if your monster motored plane can do it in 10 seconds fine. Get the plane up to a standard height, shut off the motor and soar. Personnaly I don't care if your buddy takes it up in a hot air balloon and hand tosses it out for you at 600'.

This whole e-powered launch debate is wearing me down. This is what I am planning to do. I am going to do my absolute best to replicate a hi-start launch with my Pulsar. When I think I am at the same height as my when my Riser comes off the hook, I will shut off the motor and attempt to perform the task at hand. Does anyone out there have any reservation about this? If I get really bold I may attempt some of the tasks with my 38" Mystery Man free flight plane. It glides real nice when the electric motor is off. I will probably run the motor a little longer when compared to the Pulsar but the spirit of the launch will be the same. Power straight to altitude and then off with the motor.

I will probably also set an imposed rule that the same launch direction will be set for the duration of the day's tasks. No changing. This is just what I am going to do, I am not suggesting it be a rule for everyone.

Bottom line, lets not over think the e-powered launches. Use the invisable winch metaphore as a guideline and everything should work out.

Wayne
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Old Apr 16, 2009, 12:10 PM
Proud member of LISF and ESL
LI, New York, USA
Joined Mar 2003
24,555 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Windependence
Bottom line, lets not over think the e-powered launches. Use the invisable winch metaphore as a guideline and everything should work out.

Wayne
Invisable winch? I like that!
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Old Apr 16, 2009, 02:39 PM
founder of the SSP
Steve Boone's Avatar
Walkerton, Indiana
Joined Jul 2004
1,554 Posts
It only becomes a problem when you want it to be universally acceptable.
Without some rules there is no game. Finding rules that work and make everyone happy is not easy. I'm trying to find the best compromise that will please enough people that the program will have a chance to succeed, grow and continue on.
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Old Apr 17, 2009, 12:41 PM
Making wood fly since 2007
Windependence's Avatar
USA, MN, Rochester
Joined Mar 2008
2,542 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by aeajr
Invisable winch? I like that!
It was not my origional idea, I believe Steve thought up the phrase. This is all I have been advocating since the beginning of this entire discussion. I have chimmed in of many of the other threads and have tried to make this point clear to others. Just a quick question for you Ed. I have seen you are for keeping e-powered launches seperate from the standard contests for now. Just out of curiosity, if I were ever to get out to your area would you, personally, have an issue with me mirroring your winch or hi-start launch with my e-power launched plane and competing with you? I would use the motor only to mirror your launch and then off with the motor.

This is all I have ever been advocating for but somehow all of these discussions on the other threads get cought up in all of the "unfair advantages" I have but cannot utilize. My other option is to use my traditional 2M Riser to compete with the Pikes and Supras but that contest seems a little lopsided to me. I don't hear the cries of inequity there.

I have said it before and I will say it again, SSP, LSF and any other group should be bending over backwards to be as inclusive as possible to all soaring pilots regardless of what they fly. Figure out a handicap for the different catagories of planes and cut them all loose. The absolute worst thing, IMHO, that can happen to a new pilot is to be told that they cannot fly or compete with their plane. Trust me I know, I have been there. I still bump into that when trying to fly my Riser off a hi-start at the local flying fields. There is no soaring field here so the gassers mostly tell me to go somewhere else.

I applaude Steve for working from the start on including e-powered gliders into his program. Once the details have been worked out I believe he should post it on the electric glider forum. I think he will be swampped with people looking for a set of new challenges.

Wayne
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