This thread is privately moderated by Steve Boone, who may elect to delete unwanted replies.
 Jan 12, 2010, 06:36 AM founder of the SSP Walkerton, Indiana Joined Jul 2004 1,557 Posts Ok, I had a chance to draw it and fly it on the sim. It's a bit too complicated with roll directions being called out. The normal is to have the pilot chose direction. I see why you did it though. Also took a bit to figure out that you wanted turns when you called for horizontal loops. I did a bit of work to it and here's what I came up with. Starting with level flight: pass 1: 1 roll, 1/2 roll to inverted, 1/2 outside loop(exit upright) pass 2: inside loop, 1/2 inside loop (exit inverted) pass 3: outside loop, 1/2 roll to upright, 1/2 inside loop with 1/2 roll on the upline (comes out inverted on the top) pass 4: 1/4 roll to knife edge (for 1/3 of box), 180* knife edge turn pass 5: 1/4 roll (to upright), 3 rolls (center box), 180* turn pass 6: 4 point roll, 1/4 roll, 180* knife edge turn pass 7: 1/4 roll to upright, snap roll to level flight and exit What do you think?
 Jan 12, 2010, 08:50 AM launch height can't fix stupid United States, CA, Palmdale Joined Jun 2005 1,477 Posts On the slope you "normally" want to roll/turn away from the slope which is why I was specify directions. Knife edge turn is something different. If you don't like the .5 horizontal loop, just say 180 deg turn with an exit condition, if needed. Pass 6, 4 point rolls are learned in the next level and should not be included here. Pass 7, spell out a snap roll or at least have a definition source in the task descriptions. Did you think that passes 6,7,and 8 were too complicated in my write up. All it was is inverted flight, turn, a long knife edge, turn, Cuban eight, and finished. In fairness to the G&R task, I think what you came up with is too easy in comparison. Below is my original routine simplified Pass 1: 1 inside loop, 1.5 rolls to inverted, 0.5 outside vertical loop Pass 2: horizontal knife edge for 1 or more seconds, 180 deg turn Pass 3: roll to inverted, 0.25 outside loop to vertical, 0.5 vertical roll, 0.25 outside loop to horizontal exiting upright, horizontal flight for 3 or more seconds, roll to inverted, 0.5 inside vertical loop Pass 4: 3.0 axial rolls, 0.5 inside vertical loop (exit inverted) Pass 5: 1 outside vertical loop (exit inverted), roll to upright, 0.5 inside vertical loop Pass 6: inverted flight for 3 or more seconds, 180deg turn Pass 7: horizontal knife edge for 3 or more seconds, 180deg turn Pass 8: Cuban 8 In fairness to the G&R task, I also think this is too easy in comparison but have to have something.
 Jan 12, 2010, 10:02 AM founder of the SSP Walkerton, Indiana Joined Jul 2004 1,557 Posts -First off what do you mean by horizontal loop? To my knowledge there's either a turn or a knife edge turn in a horizontal plane. -Agreed 4 point should stay out until next level. I got ahead of myself. -Snaps should stay out as well until next level. Same reason. -Yes, having every little detail (left, right) bogs down the directions. Also, I plan to make the aresti drawings for this as well. Roll direction is a pilot's decision generally. Also, remember we want to design a program not teach how to fly. Teaching is what the forums are for. If someone doesn't know what something is then they should research it. We can list links on the site to help with that. I've already done that for understanding Aresti. -Is a humpty bump possible in slope?
 Jan 12, 2010, 10:41 AM Registered User Redcliff Alberta Joined Jul 2008 584 Posts I notice that there is not a Bunt in there as well. Bunt is an outside loop. but you push down instead of up. Ken SSP #6
Jan 12, 2010, 10:46 AM
launch height can't fix stupid
United States, CA, Palmdale
Joined Jun 2005
1,477 Posts
When I was specifying a horizontal loop, I was specify a turn with a specific exit condition. Didn't want someone to start a nice, gentle, barely banked turn, exit the turn, roll level, and then start the next aerobatic pass. Was trying to make it difficult by forcing someone to exit the turn on edge and then do a knife edge, etc.

Doesn't matter though if you only evaluate each pass, which I am fine with.

Quote:
 Originally Posted by Steve Boone - -Is a humpty bump possible in slope?
yes, just need the right conditions and/or speed to do it. As described it is part of an inverted, rolling top hat.

As a person progresses through the program they should be learning what it takes to actually pull off these maneuvers. Cuban 8 is a good example. Enter the maneuver wrong and you will have a difficult time completing it.
Jan 12, 2010, 10:47 AM
launch height can't fix stupid
United States, CA, Palmdale
Joined Jun 2005
1,477 Posts
Quote:
 Originally Posted by L-Spatz I notice that there is not a Bunt in there as well. Bunt is an outside loop. but you push down instead of up.
My version has a couple of bunts in there, they are just in the vertical plane though.
 Jan 13, 2010, 09:08 AM founder of the SSP Walkerton, Indiana Joined Jul 2004 1,557 Posts I'm taking the day off from the slope R1 debate. I've just about finished the TD advanced re-write and plan to get it done and off to Joe for his approval. I do plan to draw up a new routine in the next couple of days. I plan to draw it out on the "big board" at home, take a picture and post it so everyone can get a better idea of what it will look like. I will be adding a lot of new things to it as well. It will be harder and more involved. One thing I need to know. How large of a flight box can I safely use? For those I just lost: a flight box is an imaginary 3 dimentional box that you fly in. I know it's slope/weather dependant but what can I safely use to get me in the ball park? length, depth, height I'm actually concerned most with depth. (distance out from slope) I would like to be able to make some stuff go across the box at some point. Thanks.
 Jan 13, 2010, 10:55 AM launch height can't fix stupid United States, CA, Palmdale Joined Jun 2005 1,477 Posts I would start by assuming a 100 meter square box, oriented as you look out from the slope. Should be doable across the face of the slope, and have the height centered at where you stand. Depth is much trickier. I would try to keep that fairly small, like 25ish meter max. A bit more if the box comes right up to the person flying.
 Jan 13, 2010, 12:48 PM founder of the SSP Walkerton, Indiana Joined Jul 2004 1,557 Posts Thanks Cory.
 Jan 20, 2010, 07:17 AM founder of the SSP Walkerton, Indiana Joined Jul 2004 1,557 Posts Slope is a real pain. I'm starting to wish I would have just left it out. I'm grinning and bearing it though and I think I'm finally getting a handle on what's wanted. At least I think I am. It sure ain't easy trying to make everyone happy. ************************************************** **********************************************On a personal note. I haven't been on lately due to a close friend's passing. Cancer took her fast, hard and quite painfully at a young age. I also found out yesterday that one of my oldest friends has had both kidneys fail. It seems the world is falling apart around here lately. I'm still trying to get things done as fast as I can. Please understand that my time is limited a bit right now. I'm working as hard as I can. -Steve-
 Jan 20, 2010, 08:46 AM launch height can't fix stupid United States, CA, Palmdale Joined Jun 2005 1,477 Posts Don't worry about us. Looks like you have your priorities right. If you need any help, let us know. And quit trying to make everyone happy 'cause it ain't gunna happen.
 Jan 22, 2010, 07:48 AM founder of the SSP Walkerton, Indiana Joined Jul 2004 1,557 Posts It was brought to my attention that having "routines" in the second level of the program was expecting a bit much for beginners. So of course I've been mulling it over as I do all suggestions and I think what we need to do is use the aerobatics platform for the Bronze and Silver levels. We can then use the skills learned in the Bronze and Silver levels to do a simple routine in the last part of Silver level (possibly) and then in advanced levels. I do think that a time limit and possibly landing requirement be imposed. It does make sense. I was just getting the cart ahead of the horse. It's easy to do when you already fly. It doesn't help that I'm dealing with 8 levels at once as well. This means that I'll be adding some aerobatic sets (A1-A?) and then we'll deal with Routines (R1-R?) later as needed. Here's what I have for aerobatics. I would like to add knife edge turns, 1 1/2 snaps, and the Humpty bump to A3. By Silver the bar should be raised as it's the final level for the main program. Sound good? Last edited by Steve Boone; Jan 26, 2010 at 11:08 AM. Reason: deleted task form
 Jan 23, 2010, 09:54 AM launch height can't fix stupid United States, CA, Palmdale Joined Jun 2005 1,477 Posts Sure, boss. What is the bronze level going to do for that last task? Just keep the G&R with the TD or Slope option?
 Jan 24, 2010, 06:27 AM founder of the SSP Walkerton, Indiana Joined Jul 2004 1,557 Posts I was thinking I would add the rest of the basic aerobatic moves and then some linked moves all in an allotted time. This finishes most of the basic aerobatic moves and starts prepping the new guys for routines. Should be easy enough for the new guys and still an effort for the more experienced guys as well. It would be like taking the passes from a routine and breaking them into just one pass at a time, not linking the whole routine together. They could then do the passes in any order. Each pass would basically become a sub-task in the set. Make sense? Silver can then have them all linked into one routine. It's a good progression.
 Jan 24, 2010, 09:01 AM launch height can't fix stupid United States, CA, Palmdale Joined Jun 2005 1,477 Posts Makes sense to me. I am in the middle of building my slope aerobat and looking forward to giving this a try. Of course I also plan on doing most of the other side as well.