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Old Jan 01, 2010, 07:15 AM
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Walkerton, Indiana
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HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERYONE!!!
Are you any closer to a solution for the slope task? We need to get a decision made on what to do. My wife goes back to work next week after her holiday shut down. I plan to get all over this program and have TD through advanced completed in short order. I really don't want to have to decide on the solution to the slope issue but I do need a solution soon.
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Old Jan 01, 2010, 09:36 AM
launch height can't fix stupid
United States, CA, Palmdale
Joined Jun 2005
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Elcoba, are you the one that doesn't have a big enough slope for these short G&R tasks? If so, what is the slope like? What could you do for a distance type task?

When I read the G&R task as written in the latest Bronze tasks, it says the G&R can be done via thermal or slope. Is this correct still? If not, I can see why a slope person would not want to do a thermal G&R if I am mistaken about the task. Otherwise I don't see the issues with a slope G&R, especially with the shorter distances.
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Old Jan 01, 2010, 06:48 PM
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Walkerton, Indiana
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corsha99 View Post
When I read the G&R task as written in the latest Bronze tasks, it says the G&R can be done via thermal or slope. Is this correct still? If not, I can see why a slope person would not want to do a thermal G&R if I am mistaken about the task. Otherwise I don't see the issues with a slope G&R, especially with the shorter distances.
You are correct, it can be done either Thermal Duration or slope. We're just looking for an alternative in case it's not possible in a certain area. Laps on a course F3F style is what keeps coming up most. Ahh, but once again I haven't a clue what that entails or what would be a challenge. Can someone enlighten me please? How long of lap distance, time and number of laps in that time. Thanks.
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Old Jan 01, 2010, 09:56 PM
launch height can't fix stupid
United States, CA, Palmdale
Joined Jun 2005
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9 turns on a 100 meter F3F course (1km total distance) can happen super fast. Posted earlier that world record is under 30 seconds to cover the total distance. Times depend on the conditions. The better the conditions, the faster the times assuming that you can fly the course correctly without any cuts at the turns.

As an alternate task for the bronze level, you need to figure out how much distance that you want people cover in total and then what the minimum distance between the poles. Then figuring out a time for it to be completed in will be a real trick. A certain slope may not be able to support the time portion of the task just because the conditions are not good enough while other slopes would have no problem generating the needed conditions. Again if I was SB and had to pick something that was comparable, a good starting would be 2 to 3 times the TD G&R, course greater than 100 meters between the poles. Time for the task...., good luck with that.

I was thinking that a good task for the next level was an F3F type task. 9 turns on a 100 meter course, just like F3F, with a time under 75 seconds, repeated a few times. 75 seconds is quite slow for a typical F3F comp but should be doable for the average Joe that doesn't have a beeper system (may have to use flags at the poles) to allow them to fly the course the faster. One issue with picking a time is that slower slope planes will have a hard time meeting the time and is limiting in that respect.

For more info on F3F check out below:
http://www.sloperacing.com/
http://www.socalsloperacing.com/faq.htm
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Old Jan 01, 2010, 10:09 PM
launch height can't fix stupid
United States, CA, Palmdale
Joined Jun 2005
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So how is this alternate really going to work? Seems like you should either put in the slope G&R or alternate task, not list both and let them pick one. TD doesn't get the same either/or options but could using an F3B type task instead of the G&R.
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Old Jan 02, 2010, 10:17 PM
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Very cool slope vid. Slope is 30 feet high and the wind speed is an amazing 2 to 2.24 mph. Just to show that you don't need MASIVE hill's or gale force wind's. I think Most 2m TD ship's will fly under these condition's.


http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...7&postcount=20



Ken
SSP #6
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Old Jan 02, 2010, 11:47 PM
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Mapleton, Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corsha99 View Post
Elcoba, are you the one that doesn't have a big enough slope for these short G&R tasks? If so, what is the slope like? What could you do for a distance type task?----.
Yup that is me. The problem here is that G&R definition requires a flight between two points in a STRAIGHT line. As far as I am concerned this can not be done off a slope unless you have a slope +/- the required length with access to the turning point, or, a big enough plane that you can see for, in this case, 1km straight out. If you are talking anything but this please do not call it G&R. Should you wish to replace G&R with a short course between 2 points, a triangular course or anything else, I have no problem other than terminology. I have proposed the last bronze slope task to be an option of G&R(or other version of distance) or a time limited aerobatic schedule. Surely this should satisfy everyone?
Charles
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Old Jan 03, 2010, 08:32 PM
launch height can't fix stupid
United States, CA, Palmdale
Joined Jun 2005
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I re-read the G&R for TD in the tasks and my take away was the measured distance must be in a straight line, not the flight. I know for a thermal G&R you wouldn't be able to fly in a straight line the entire time as you need catch thermals to stay up. Also, a 1000 meter G&R would be 500 meters out and 500 meters back. In the task description that is not clear. From your description it sounds like you are thinking 1km out and 1 km back. If it is half that distance, does that now work on your slope? What if there are 3 waypoints like suggested earlier?

Steve, is my interpretation correct?

My only problem with a time limited aerobatic schedule is that I think it is not on the same level as a G&R. A G&R requires prior planning of the waypoints for the course, getting things set up to fly the course, and of course doing it. It is not something that can be easily practiced in advance and may require multiple attempts to complete.

Also a timed aerobatic schedule will be very tricky to set up such that it is do-able without being too easy. I think it should take a newbie graduating from the copper level a couple of attempts to make. Experienced fliers should probably be able to do it on the first time with some margin. Think back to when you first got into something (aerobatics, F3F racing, DS'ing, or whatever) and remember how long it took you get to the level of accomplishment being proposed. Throw in on top of it the uncertainty and variability of slopes and their conditions and you could have a time limit that very difficult to meet on some slopes. It is the thing I am struggling with the most on a F3F type task.

Steve, what is the goal for a person graduating from Bronze level? What should they be able to do before attempting the next level? I have not seen the slope version for the next level so I do not have a good idea of what is coming.

Cory
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Old Jan 03, 2010, 09:04 PM
launch height can't fix stupid
United States, CA, Palmdale
Joined Jun 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L-Spatz View Post
Very cool slope vid. Slope is 30 feet high and the wind speed is an amazing 2 to 2.24 mph. Just to show that you don't need MASIVE hill's or gale force wind's. I think Most 2m TD ship's will fly under these condition's.
Cool video indeed. He is definately hugging the lip and slope in that video. Was waiting for him to catch a tip and spin it.

That must be the bigger wing version of that model because no way the short wing version with a wing loading of 13 oz/sq ft could stay up like that, even with gobs of camber.
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Old Jan 04, 2010, 12:59 AM
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Mapleton, Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corsha99 View Post
I re-read the G&R for TD in the tasks and my take away was the measured distance must be in a straight line, not the flight. I know for a thermal G&R you wouldn't be able to fly in a straight line the entire time as you need catch thermals to stay up. Also, a 1000 meter G&R would be 500 meters out and 500 meters back. In the task description that is not clear. From your description it sounds like you are thinking 1km out and 1 km back. If it is half that distance, does that now work on your slope? What if there are 3 waypoints like suggested earlier?Cory
Hi Cory,
To answer you in order , I don't see the whether the path you follow in a G&R has any significance and could be 5km or more in length, the turning point must still be 1km away. Secondly a G&R with a turning point of 500 mtrs is fine and is quite achievable but not 1km. If I have misread the distance the task description is incomplete and should be rectified. I still feel that 3 waypoints do not fit the definition of G&R.
To check the above could someone confirm the following related to LSF. In the G&R applied to Levels 3 and 4 are the turning points a distance of 1km and 2km from the starting point or 500mtrs and 1km?
Charles
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Old Jan 04, 2010, 08:01 AM
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Walkerton, Indiana
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G&R as it works for Thermal Duration is distance in this case 1K from the starting point to the turn around point measured in a straight line. Then back to the starting point. Round trip if you were to go straight there and back is 2K. This is a super fun task and requires you to search for lift along the way. It is also short enough that you can see even a 2M plane from the start point. If you have someone at the turn around point with a cell phone you could do it and never leave your launch area.
For slope, this is what's creating a problem. You don't get to be way up in the air to make the flight easy to see and safe. You need to be close the the slope and that I would think would require you to be able to follow along with your plane. I guess that would depend on your location and eyes, but I would think it would almost be a neccesity. We simply wanted to allow those who could or wanted to give it a try as slope the option of doing so.
This is the big hassle of the "this or that" style of program. Getting everyone to agree on something relatively "fair" to both sides of task sheet. The LSF stuck simply with time. It made it very easy to work out. It was deemed boring by everyone when we were starting this program so we're trying to work around it being all about time. What we couldn't seem to get everyone to understand is it could be anything you wanted it to be. Meaning you could spend the air time flying what ever pattern you wanted. The preference was for us to tell you what to fly to make you push yourself into something new each time. That's why we have the aerobatic requirements added to the flights. What everyone has to realize is there has to be compromise in this style of program or it can't work. As pointed out to me on several occations, we're trying to compare apples to oranges. The skill sets are seldom going to be the same. Just the spirit of the difficulty and attempts it should take the new to adverage flyer to complete them. I hope this helps as we need to move forward. People are getting done with Copper and there is no Bronze at this point.
AS to where slope is going to go in the next level. The proposed level is enclosed. I will say up front, this is not the final draft. I personally don't care for only needing to hit the last flight's landing. Nor do I care for being able to make mutiple attempts to do it. This is just a proposal. We will make changes as we see fit to make it work within the program. We will however be talking to mutiple slope heads around the world to COA and to make it do-able. We always said it wouldn't be easy to do the program. We've lightened up the main program severly to make it more accessable to new flyers already.
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Old Jan 04, 2010, 08:40 AM
launch height can't fix stupid
United States, CA, Palmdale
Joined Jun 2005
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With the clarification on the G&R, I would say most slopes won't support 1km out and 1km back. I can only think of 2 that are just big enough for the 1km distance and provide access to the turn. With that, the slope G&R probably should be dropped all together instead of an either/or. Looks like the time aero routine is the ticket.

Sorry about all the confusion on my part.
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Old Jan 04, 2010, 12:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corsha99 View Post
With the clarification on the G&R, I would say most slopes won't support 1km out and 1km back. I can only think of 2 that are just big enough for the 1km distance and provide access to the turn. With that, the slope G&R probably should be dropped all together instead of an either/or. Looks like the time aero routine is the ticket.

Sorry about all the confusion on my part.
No problem. I have to agree at this point that G&R for slope should just be dropped. It's just not feasable in enough areas to make it work. So let's get a final slope task agreed on so we can get Bronze finished again. I want to get this thing rolling again as we've stalled out lately with all of the holidays. Not to mention we have 8 of us trying to work on a Bronze that's now not done and more getting close to finishing Copper. We need to get ahead of the game again.
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Old Jan 04, 2010, 10:13 PM
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Mapleton, Australia
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Originally Posted by Steve Boone View Post
No problem. I have to agree at this point that G&R for slope should just be dropped.
Steve now that we all have at last agreed that slope G&R will not work ( Hooray) my suggestions for the replacement task are:-
1) Aerobatic program as previously suggested.
2) A distance task between two points( not three points) on the slope, say 200/300 meters, whatever, apart.
I also note a couple of discrepencies in allocated times between your latest provisional bronze and the Task descriptor in the SSP.
Charles
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Old Jan 05, 2010, 07:08 AM
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Walkerton, Indiana
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Originally Posted by elcoba View Post
Steve now that we all have at last agreed that slope G&R will not work ( Hooray) my suggestions for the replacement task are:-
1) Aerobatic program as previously suggested.
2) A distance task between two points( not three points) on the slope, say 200/300 meters, whatever, apart.
I also note a couple of discrepencies in allocated times between your latest provisional bronze and the Task descriptor in the SSP.
Charles
I'm for aerobatics program no time limit. At least not at bronze level. IMAC style. Set routine that must be done correctly. (ie. in order, and proper direction) Although I can hear the it already, "What now I have to learn aresti!?!". Plus, I'm not sure how to make or post the routines to the website. I'll figure it out. With help from our web guy of course, I'm not as smart as I appear sometimes. LMAO
The discrepencies are due to the re-write. I'm in the process of trying to get everything updated now. I spent 3 hours on it Sunday and another hour yesterday. I was hoping to get this solved before I started on the Bronze part of the site. Small changes here are major changes to the site usually.
Does everyone agree on everything else for Bronze? If so I can get started and just add this last slope task when we get it done. I enclosed the latest version. Of course the the last slope task still needs added.
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Last edited by Steve Boone; Jan 07, 2010 at 01:08 PM. Reason: REMOVED BRONZE PROPOSAL
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