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Old Dec 11, 2009, 11:50 AM
launch height can't fix stupid
United States, CA, Palmdale
Joined Jun 2005
1,223 Posts
Like what I saw for the slope soaring program, for the most part. Should be achievable by begginer to intermediate pilots. Really like the limbo but confused by what a meter is

My understanding of the down wind landing is that you are flying your approach with the wind, instead of into it. Makes the landing speed greater and therefor much harder to slow the plane down. Not sure the merit in this though. I can do down wind spot landings with my combat wing and just plow it in with no harm. Doesn't really help me develop skills though for flying something nicer. Other method is to bring it in hot and low, then pull up to bleed off as much energy as possible before hand catching. Hurts when you get it wrong. My better slope planes pretty much get landed 100% into the wind. Too big to try and catch coming in hot and too expensive to risk a high speed down wind landing.

Part of me is wondering if they are really talking about the landing style that is basically coming in with the wind and at the last second flipping the sailplane around and pancaking to the ground but facing into the wind.
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Old Dec 11, 2009, 08:18 PM
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Redcliff Alberta
Joined Jul 2008
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Easy! One yard is 36 inch's and a meter is 39.37 (39 is close enuff). You fellow's REALY need to get into the metric world, this is 2010(in a few day's) .



Ken
SSP #6
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Old Dec 12, 2009, 03:28 PM
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Buchanan Mi
Joined Apr 2005
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I like the Slope edition, I might have to give it a try since we are loosing our field.

Joe
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Old Dec 13, 2009, 10:20 AM
launch height can't fix stupid
United States, CA, Palmdale
Joined Jun 2005
1,223 Posts
One additional comment on the slope tasks, in particular aerobatics. It says to perform a knife edge for a certain distance. This particular task is limiting in that you really need something with a rudder. Most slope planes don't have rudders until you get up to the bigger ones. Not a problem for me but will be for those that only have combat wings or planks.
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Old Dec 13, 2009, 08:59 PM
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Redcliff Alberta
Joined Jul 2008
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Done knife edge flight many time's with my little Chinese Fox with only aileron and elevator. the trick is get 100/200 feet above you,fly a fast 180 degree turn behind you. as you fly in a gental dive over yourself, pull up into a 20 degree or so climb. When you hit the strongest part of the lift,snap onto one wing tip and use elevator to hold your position. With enuff speed and good lift, a very gental knife edge arc is flown for several meter's.

This will work for 4 point roll's and the like as well.
Sorry to hear about the field Joe. Hopefully a new site can be found by spring.


Ken
SSP #6
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Old Dec 14, 2009, 09:09 AM
launch height can't fix stupid
United States, CA, Palmdale
Joined Jun 2005
1,223 Posts
Guess it all depends on your definition of a Knife edge. I like the IMAC when it comes to aerobatics. They would consider a perfect knife edge to be parallel to the runway (hill in this case) and level.

I now have a Suraci (60" slope aerobat) that will be perfect for these tasks but not everyone is so lucky.
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Old Dec 17, 2009, 05:52 AM
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Mapleton, Australia
Joined May 2003
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Hey you guys, get a life. If you want to fly a knife edge according to CIAM rules then don't waste your time here, go and do competition flying. This is a proficency grade and designed for "inexperienced" flyers to work towards a proficiency rating and as long as they can produce what in general approximates the required manoevre, it is acceptable. Later proficencies can have more difficult conditions placed on them.
As far as downwind landings are concerned once again this is a proficency to be demonstrated. Certain fields and certain conditions do require downwind landings. So in order to be prepared for this eventuality, this proficency is included.
Hope this clears the air a bit !!
Charles
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Old Dec 17, 2009, 06:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elcoba View Post
Hey you guys, get a life. If you want to fly a knife edge according to CIAM rules then don't waste your time here, go and do competition flying. This is a proficency grade and designed for "inexperienced" flyers to work towards a proficiency rating and as long as they can produce what in general approximates the required manoevre, it is acceptable. Later proficencies can have more difficult conditions placed on them.
As far as downwind landings are concerned once again this is a proficency to be demonstrated. Certain fields and certain conditions do require downwind landings. So in order to be prepared for this eventuality, this proficency is included.
Hope this clears the air a bit !!
Charles
I have to agree with Charles. There will be no judges at this thing. Just define a knife edge as a manauver where the plane travels the requied distance with the main wing 90 degrees to the ground. PERIOD.
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Old Dec 17, 2009, 09:05 AM
launch height can't fix stupid
United States, CA, Palmdale
Joined Jun 2005
1,223 Posts
elcoba, doesn't clear it up at all but thanks for your understanding and nice delivery. In case you haven't noticed I have been trying to actually help this effort out by making sure tasks were clear and concise. What you presented for the slope has elements that are neither to a newbie. Don't assume that because you and your buddies know what you are talking about that everyone else does.

So answer these very specific questions.

What is the definition of a knife edge flight for the program? Is it as simple as aeajr suggests with a wing simply 90 degrees to the ground? Does it have to be in a straight line or can you be pulling like in a turn? Parallel to the slope, perpendicular to the slope, or does direction matter?

What is the definition of a down wind landing? Is it landing with the wind instead of into it? Or is it simply landing at a spot that is downwind of where you are at?

Remember that I am experienced and it wasn't clear. I also fly other aircraft and design real ones. The same term can mean different things to different people.
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Old Dec 17, 2009, 09:49 AM
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Walkerton, Indiana
Joined Jul 2004
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Elcoba: Don't be so defensive. Corsha is right here. Believe me, if it's not spelled out the e-mails flow. Down wind landing to me is self-explanitory but believe me it won't be. His point is valid. Also, just because this is a sportsman's program don't think that we will have sub-par standards. I will not call something a loop just because it goes over the top. It has to be some what round, start and stop reasonably close to the same point, etc. There has to be a "standard of exeptable excellence" so to speak.
************************************************** *****************************
I've been staying quiet for almost a week to see how things go and to get some stuff taken care of at home. Today I sat down and really took a look at the proposal from elcoba and his guys. In all honesty, it wasn't far off of what we had originally aerobatically. Here's where I'll catch a lot of flack not being a sloper and all. To me it looks a bit, well, easy. It looks to be something do-able in very short order or am I missing something here? TD and slope may be apples and oranges but the concept of the program is the same. They must at least closely require the same amount of effort per level. If I had a slope around here (and the health to climb it ) I would choose the slope side hands down. I'm not putting down you and your guys efforts, I apreciate them. It's just too light for me. I'm curious also as to where you guys will go with the harder levels. Is it going to lean towards aerobatics, time, ladders? How do you propose to make it more difficult?
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Old Dec 17, 2009, 11:51 AM
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Okanagan Falls. British columbia. Canada
Joined Nov 2006
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While we are on the subject of language, may I suggest that the use of initials(toowidespread these days), when the phrase has not been spelled out early in the text so that it can be referred too, is not very helpful to newcomers to your hobby. Please refrain from this practice in the rules of this sport program.It took me some time to catch on that TD meant Thermal Duration!
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Old Dec 19, 2009, 09:36 AM
founder of the SSP
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Walkerton, Indiana
Joined Jul 2004
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(A) = aerobatic
(L) = level
(TD) = thermal duration
There will be a change to the way difficulties are described. The terms "basic, intermediate and advanced" are gone. They will now be described using "levels" (L1, L2, etc) This had to be done because we've now split the program up and it was confusing the old way. This should make life easier.
I was not thrilled to say the least to have to re-write the program from the second level forward. I was feeling good that we about had the program complete. Now this has caused us to have to start almost from scratch. Not to mention, I have to now re-write the requirements as well. Then re-write the web page. I only agreed as it looks to benefit the program. At least I hope it does, as this is a real pain to say the least. Ok, enough whining on my part. We did not agree with the difficulty level of the slope stuff compared to the TD side, so we beefed it up a bit. Nothing severe. We will be doing the same with the next level if we deem it necessary so that it more closely relates to the TD (thermal duration) side work load wise. The G&R is now for either TD or slope. I have not changed the requirements on the website yet. In fact they're not done yet. The things to be defined are the (L) and (A) requirements. They will simply be the aerobatic moves and time, landing requirements for the task sets. Don't get excited, they're not a huge deal to figure out. It just makes it easier to fit on the forms. If we were to list the whole requirement for a task for each item it wouldn't fit on a page. Listing it as (L) and (A) then referring you to the requirement pages makes life easier and less cluttered.
The program will eventually be three parts. The "this or that" main program. Then an advanced TD and an advanced slope part. We have gathered information, ideas, suggestions and done trials for 10 months now. It's time to finish the program layout and leave it be. My goal is still the end of the month if I can keep in touch with Joe enough to get his approval on stuff. At that point, it's my opinion, that it should be left alone. I've enclosed a preliminary copy of the Bronze level to show where we're at. Don't print it, as it will not be any good until the final release. Anyone working on Bronze that has questions should contact me so we can get you taken care of. We apologize for the inconvienience it may have caused you making these changes. However, the majority spoke and once again we listened. That being said, IMHO, the time for talk and research is over. It's time for action. It's time to finish this up and let it fly or die. The Advanced TD part will be done in short order. I'm not sure about the Advanced Slope part. We'll have to let you know at a later date.
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Old Dec 19, 2009, 01:31 PM
launch height can't fix stupid
United States, CA, Palmdale
Joined Jun 2005
1,223 Posts
I like it for the slope portion. Does try to even things out between the two. Hurry up and get this finalized so I can work on it over Christmas break!!!

Thanks for the hard work.
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Old Dec 19, 2009, 03:20 PM
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United States, IN, Fort Wayne
Joined Apr 2003
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Hats Off to AEAJR

Atta boy Ed .... Glad to see your SOARING article in Model Aviation.


Ray
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Old Dec 19, 2009, 05:06 PM
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Walkerton, Indiana
Joined Jul 2004
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Just read it myself. Thanks for stirring some more interest in the soaring community Ed. Good job.

Quote:
Originally Posted by corsha99 View Post
I like it for the slope portion. Does try to even things out between the two. Hurry up and get this finalized so I can work on it over Christmas break!!!

Thanks for the hard work.
As soon as I can locate Joe. He's been hiding again. He has one of those job thingies.
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