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Old Apr 07, 2009, 12:13 PM
founder of the SSP
Steve Boone's Avatar
Walkerton, Indiana
Joined Jul 2004
1,554 Posts
I want to take a minute to do a little rambling. There has been concern of long flights being boring. I would like to say, I agree that going back and forth along a slope could become boring. You do not have to simply fly back and forth though. You can be bustin' out your favorite moves the whole time! Fly inverted, do low passes, aerobatics or what ever turns you on. For example I made a 45 minute TD flight last year with a Sophisticated Lady and was doing aerobatics for kicks the last 15 minutes or so of the flight. One day it was too windy for my Tower Hobbies Vista to do anything of importance time wise. My buddy Dave had his retiever there and let me shoot my landings using it so I wouldn't have to walk so much. When I got to the last two I decided it would be more fun to get them "the hard way". On approach I would do two loops and land. It made it way more entertaining and much more difficult. Could it have come back and bit me on the behind? Yup, and it did many times, but it was fun! My point is it doesn't have to be boring if you use your imagination. Will it cost you some flights or landings that would have made it, probably. Will it make the ones you get more exciting, definatly! The intent of this program is to be challenging, fun and to give a bit of structure to our soaring days to keep things from becoming stale. Like so many other programs, this program is not meant to be done in one season of flying. It's also going to get exponentially harder. By the time you get to the Titanium level I guarantee you will have worked for it! This is not going to be some fodder for the "you just want an easy way out, want it light" crowd to throw in your face. In fact, I intend for it to be worthy of admiration by others no matter if you compete or not. There will always be those who will be down on this program I'm sure. To those I say, it will be time for THEM to put up or shut up just like we were told to do. (why do I feel like i should be shouting "REVOLUTION" and shaking my fist right now?) Thanks for letting me ramble and rant a bit. I needed it! That being said;
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I have the TD portion of the BRONZE level done. I think you'll all like it. I've also posted a link to here in the slope forum to hopefully get some input from the slope guys for some tasks they would be interested in. The slope stuff is really holding me up.
************************************************** ************************************************** ***********
Electric guys: Please, I'm begging you, come up with a solution for to make it possible to get you all involved. You're the best bet for figuring out a way to making it a fair and level playing field.
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Old Apr 07, 2009, 12:28 PM
I'm all about that bass
rdwoebke's Avatar
United States, IN, Indianapolis
Joined Feb 2004
15,222 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Boone
Electric guys: Please, I'm begging you, come up with a solution for to make it possible to get you all involved. You're the best bet for figuring out a way to making it a fair and level playing field.
Just make all the tasks be single motor run at beginning of the flight that can be no longer than 90 seconds.
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Old Apr 07, 2009, 01:03 PM
Cleveland Ohio
Cleveland Ohio
Joined Jan 2006
244 Posts
electric

LSF is hung up on using only a high start or winch. hlg is ok for contest wins. real pilots dont use electric. lsf is a purist group with a love for tradition. nothing wrong with that. it will be interesting to see if 2/3 vote for change.

some would sugest that the joruney of learning is more important than the achievement level itself.

electric is the red hair child.

there are limiters such as zlog which shut down the motor at any determined height. so i could punch in say 400 feet, the equivalent of an averge winch launch. this unit is $95. maybe its too complicated for some. if you look at the threads about subtracting motor run seconds from hang time. some of the winners are under 10 sec.

with any good powerplant 90 sec is too long. i would spek out and lose the plane which i have done serveral times.

i would suggest more like 30 seconds. this would penalize elctric gentle lady and some easystars. but the pulsar and hyper crowd will get up high quick. i have both planes. even my chyrallis gets up high to 1200 fet with 30 sec runs

FYI, my Cleveland club is coming out with our SPAM program (slope pilots achiement medals) formerly known as Slopehead program, not seen as politcally correct by some old timers. and i have a korean daughter,,bad me.

this will have catergories such as racing, precision, combat, diversity, DSing, duration. bronze to platimum level. we are using video footage for witness protection program from silver up. We are having some slope gurus review for completeness.

we decided to side step lsf and other programs to be orginial and not impeded by one's past. we will have a dedicated web site, achievment sheets, all that stuff. tee shirts to follow.

bill snow
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Old Apr 07, 2009, 01:09 PM
I'm all about that bass
rdwoebke's Avatar
United States, IN, Indianapolis
Joined Feb 2004
15,222 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by wsnowfall
is hung up on using only a high start or winch. hlg is ok for contest wins.
Actually, if you read the rules on the website you can use a hand launch for the duration or XC tasks. BTW, Steve is going to chastize you for saying the name in this thread that is not to be said.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wsnowfall
with any good powerplant 90 sec is too long. i would spek out and lose the plane which i have done serveral times.
That would be your problem then.

The launch system rules that I think Steve borrowed for his program basically allow for 1,000 feet of line. A good pilot with a 2M plane could probably zoom to 1,300 feet with that much line so I don't see how loosing a model by taking advantage of the full alloted run time is any different than loosing a model for taking advantage of the fully alloted launch system length.

Steve's times are pretty long. If a guy climbs an e-Ava to 2,000 feet they are still going to need to work thermals to make the 1 and 2 and in some cases 4 hour flight task.

Ryan
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Old Apr 07, 2009, 01:14 PM
Glider guider
Speedo125's Avatar
United States, FL, Sun City Center
Joined Oct 2005
359 Posts
I agree with the 90 sec. motor run proposal. It's a simple way to handle the matter. There will always be differences in launch height from model to model, motor to motor, winch to winch and hi-start to hi-start. You'll never make it a perfectly level playing field. I'd like to see everyone have a chance to participate.
Thom
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Old Apr 07, 2009, 01:35 PM
Torn 'twixt buildin' and flyin
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United States, TX, Austin
Joined Oct 2007
7,217 Posts
Ryan, I don't fly electric, so may be (again) talking through my hat, here, but I thought part of the "philosophy," as it were, of electric sailplanes was that you can climb to altitude more than once. It would seem to me that part of demonstrating mastery of electric sailplanes would be that you can climb, soar around for awhile, and then get back up there without relaunching. But I haven't a clue how to make that a "task" dependent more on pilot skill than powerplant and battery capacity.


Nightowl
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Old Apr 07, 2009, 01:51 PM
I'm all about that bass
rdwoebke's Avatar
United States, IN, Indianapolis
Joined Feb 2004
15,222 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNightowl
Ryan, I don't fly electric, so may be (again) talking through my hat, here, but I thought part of the "philosophy," as it were, of electric sailplanes was that you can climb to altitude more than once.
Sure but then you have to figure out how to make it a challenging task. Any e glider should be able to thermal and saying just 1 run and thermal from there makes it a challenge. Allowing single run beginning of flight runs allows e glider pilots into the program, does not overly complicate the thing, and keeps the spirit of it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNightowl
Okay, based on what Ryan said, I checked a certain programs tasks, and it does say handlaunch is allowed. it says that winch/tow line cannot be more than 300 meters. Where did the discussion that it has to be a 75 meter line come up?
Check the rules on the landings. Landings in the must not be named in this thread have to come from a >75 meter line launching system.
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Old Apr 07, 2009, 02:13 PM
Making wood fly since 2007
Windependence's Avatar
USA, MN, Rochester
Joined Mar 2008
2,533 Posts
This past summer I attended a fun fly contest where I had to choose a class to fly in. I selected RES as that was how my plane was configured. This choice put me in with the Avas and Sopranos. I can guarantee that those guys were launching off the winch with a zoom waayyy higher than my 2M woody Riser was. Launch heights are not equal now so trying to make them equal for this program would be difficult.

I believe the spirit of the program would have people launching to a best guess of 500 - 600' with their electrics. A 90 second motor run would give many more flyers the option to participate. My Pulsar would be out of sight on a 90 second motor run but my 38" Mystery Man would need every second of the 90 to get up there. You will have a very hard time preventing people from launching to the moon if that is what the want to do regardless of whether they fly electric or traditional. But then launching to speck height would really defeat the purpose of the task.

If I am allowed to use my electric planes for this program I will do my best to launch to a "standard" launch height. I will probably error on the low side of the launch height. To do otherwise would really defeat the challenge and purpose of the program. I would not call it much of an achievement to run a e-powered plane up to 2,000' and claim a 30 minute flight time. Most decent gliders could almost do that with no lift. Part of this program is going to count on the honesty and integrity of the people participatng. Cheaters will always cheat

So, I would propose a 90 second motor run for tasks. This gives most e-powered gliders a real chance to get to launch height. Once to height the power is off and the clock starts just like coming off the line. Also I would add that in the spirit of the tasks that high power e-gliders could not spend the 90 seconds at height under power looking for lift and then shutting down the power after finding it. Again the integrity thing. If the motor should be refired during the flight, that attempt at the task is forefeit and will need to be restarted.

So how does that sound?

Wayne
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Old Apr 07, 2009, 02:49 PM
Glider guider
Speedo125's Avatar
United States, FL, Sun City Center
Joined Oct 2005
359 Posts
While it's true that e-sailplanes have the ability to re-start the motor and climb to altitude at any time, there is certainly no standard practice for doing so. I think the purists have tainted everyone's thoughts toward e-sailplanes. If, for the purpose of these tasks, the motor is only run one time to reach launch height and not restarted for the entire flight, then the power system is just another (albeit more convenient) way to launch a sailplane (with a weight disadvantage). I'm sure everyone in the e-sailplane community would agree that doing so would NOT be acceptable for these tasks. Simply make one motor run per flight a requirement for all of these tasks.

Thom
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Old Apr 07, 2009, 02:51 PM
Glider guider
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United States, FL, Sun City Center
Joined Oct 2005
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I think Wayne stated it perfectly.

Thom
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Old Apr 07, 2009, 03:09 PM
Torn 'twixt buildin' and flyin
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United States, TX, Austin
Joined Oct 2007
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Wayne, Thom, don't get me wrong. I have no problem with a single limited motor run for E-power, effectively "launching to height" and then all else is equal. I was just saying that doing it that way, while still a measure of soaring skill, doesn't really address whether or not the e-flier is skilled with all the capabilities of their plane. I was more questioning whether or not this unique aspect of e-gliders, as compared to pure sailplanes, is something that should be considered.
Nightowl
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Old Apr 07, 2009, 03:19 PM
Glider guider
Speedo125's Avatar
United States, FL, Sun City Center
Joined Oct 2005
359 Posts
No offence taken Nightowl. I don't understand what you're getting at in your second sentence tho'. Are you refering to the individual sailplane's ability to winch or hi-start launch?
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Old Apr 07, 2009, 03:59 PM
Torn 'twixt buildin' and flyin
TheNightowl's Avatar
United States, TX, Austin
Joined Oct 2007
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You mean: ".. effectively "launching to height" and then all else is equal." I just meant using the motor and limited prop run, instead of a high-start or winch line, to launch the aircraft to some reasonably recognized envelope of "launch height." By "all else equal," I just meant that the tasks required of the plane and pilot after the launch wouldn't be any different for an e-glider versus a pure sailplaine.

In other words, basically all you would be doing different is "launching" with the lmiited motor run.
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Old Apr 07, 2009, 04:21 PM
founder of the SSP
Steve Boone's Avatar
Walkerton, Indiana
Joined Jul 2004
1,554 Posts
All right everyone, please remember that none of the credit for this goes to me. I would like to thank Thom (Speedo125) for his time, effort and even letting me request a small change (I asked for colored lettering, thanks Thom) for the creation of the logo for the SSP. He did a fantastic job and then sent it to me. I liked it so well I'm using it. Thom has re-worked it so it's usable as wallpaper as well. So without further delay...drumroll please
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Old Apr 07, 2009, 04:34 PM
Making wood fly since 2007
Windependence's Avatar
USA, MN, Rochester
Joined Mar 2008
2,533 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheNightowl
I was just saying that doing it that way, while still a measure of soaring skill, doesn't really address whether or not the e-flier is skilled with all the capabilities of their plane.
I would counter that the SSP does stand for Sportsman Soaring Program. If I want to fly my plane like a hotliner or like a traditional gasser I certainly can, but I do not consider it a glider when I am doing it. The tasks that are being proposed by Steve are for soaring/sloping skills, i.e. non-motorized flying skills. If I use an e-powered machine to work on these skills, I believe it should be flown in a glider like manor. I think of the motor on my Pulsar as an internal launching mechanisim, nothing more.

There does seem to be some hesitation when it comes to e-powered gliders and contests/tasks. There is the question of well he can just turn on the motor if he wants to. I guess that is true but I don't want to. Again I would argue that once at launch height, my plane is no different from yours. I turn off the motor and now I have the flight penalty of extra weight and the folding prop flopping around causing drag. I would gladly participate in a SSP task where the the witness tells me "OK, that looks like 500' now shut down the motor". Additionally I am going to have to be more certain on my landing skills because I do not want to drive the motor into the ground on landing like many of the composite planes to make my landing target.

Wayne
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Last edited by Windependence; Apr 07, 2009 at 04:41 PM.
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