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Old Nov 27, 2009, 02:38 PM
Balsa breaks better
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Buchanan Mi
Joined Apr 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aeajr View Post
So, if a vet of 20 years of flying were to join the program, you feel he will receiver greater fulfillment by starting at the beginner level?
I see it as a refresher course on what I should be VERY good at after 25 years. For me it is the landings, I find it very hard to launch and land when my buddies are specing out. Steve making me shoot 30-40 landings to get my last one for Copper showed results in the contest I have been to since, I am getting more than 100 points in 5-6 rounds!!!!!
Thank You Steve!!
The SSP is supposed to be a training program for the Sportsman. The guy that flies any chance he gets. The task in the SSP gives them goals that train them to fly a sailplane.
The only way I know how to do that is practice which is what the SSP does with the task for each metal.
Ask the guys that make it to the FAI comps or are consistently win contest how they got there, I am sure they will tell you they practice a lot.

Joe
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Old Nov 27, 2009, 03:32 PM
Soaring Circuits
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Coopersburg, PA
Joined Sep 2001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aeajr View Post
So, if a vet of 20 years of flying were to join the program, you feel he will receiver greater fulfillment by starting at the beginner level?
Yeah, I think he/she would feel a greater sense of accomplishment working through the whole program. And, the lower levels should be a piece of cake for them.

I may be wrong, but I don't think a 20 year vet can tell the LSF that they're going to jump into the SAP at Level 3, for example.

Randy
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Old Nov 27, 2009, 03:32 PM
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OK, I understand your point of view. I am just expressing my point of view.

Personally, I don't need the SSP so I can practice landings for contests. I practice landings for contests because I am a contest pilot, which is why I am working the LSF contest program.

Quote:
Originally Posted by rcbrust View Post
Yeah, I think he/she would feel a greater sense of accomplishment working through the whole program. And, the lower levels should be a piece of cake for them.

I may be wrong, but I don't think a 20 year vet can tell the LSF that they're going to jump into the SAP at Level 3, for example.

Randy

Randy, you are quite right.
It is one of the annoyances I have with the current program. It took me an entire season to get through level 1 and 2. That was not because there was any challenge to 1 and 2 but because of the time delays and waits needed. And the time it took to get through some of the contest requirements. For example, I completed Level II with contest points that would have qualified to complete Level III. Now I have to do them over again for Level III. Nothing new, just more of the same. The 30 minute flights that I did while I was doing level 1 and 2 were not applicable toward Level III because I had to slog through 1 and 2 first.

The program didn't really become interesting till I hit level III. If I could have started the LSF program at Level III, I would have started there. Level 1 and 2 were simply barriers to working the challenges that I saw as real opportunites for personal growth.

So, what does all of this have to do with the SSP?

When I look at the development of a new program I look at my own experiences with LSF's program, plus things that others have told me about their feelings about the current LSF program. Some of those feelings and feedbacks were about why people did not participate in the LSF program.

I take that information and experiences and see what I could suggest to make a new program more attractive to beginner and experienced pilots alike. That was the basis of my suggesting a two part program. Let the newbies work through the basics and let the advanced pilots jump in at a more advanced level.


I am not saying I am right and everyone else is wrong. We all have valid points of view. I express my thoughts, not to show you all how right I am, but to put new ideas on the table. I have no proof that my approach is any better than any other. The organizers can then pick and choose those ideas and elements that map well to the goals of the program as they see it.


As I said earlier, if I were driving this program I would be looking for a high level of participation and a high level of completion. But that is not necessarily the goal of those who are in charge of the program, and that is OK with me. I am just providing my ideas for consideration.
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Last edited by aeajr; Nov 28, 2009 at 10:18 AM. Reason: fixed a couple of typos
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Old Nov 28, 2009, 06:17 AM
Proud member of LISF and ESL
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BTW, I am very glad to see that this is mostly a paperless sysetm. Paper and snail mail bring no value to the program, you just have to file it.

I would elimnate all signatures and scanning of forms. No one is going to audit the signatures or call the witnesses, unless there is a dispute. So a simple text based e-mail that advises you that someone completed a level, the relevent info is all anyone needs. IF you want witnesses, A name and phone number is sufficent. Easy to file electronically and produces tiny files.

Best of luck to the program and many thanks to the organizers for their service to the community and to giving my thoughts consideration.
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Old Nov 28, 2009, 11:12 AM
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Redcliff Alberta
Joined Jul 2008
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I don't see what the issue is with this program. Swimming the English Channel or any of the Great Lake's is a daunting task,so only a few try,same as climbing Mount Everest.

If this program is too difficult or too long for anyone, then my advice is DON'T DO IT. Threre will be many of us that over time will rise up to the challenge.
I have the shortest flying season of anyone so far at 10 -12 week's per year. Every flying day, I know that I have to bring my "A" game,and fly for a purpose and not just "dither around" in the sky.

I like the program just the way it is!!!


Ken
SSP #6
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Old Nov 29, 2009, 06:27 AM
Ricky Windsock
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USA, FL, Sanford
Joined Nov 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L-Spatz View Post

I like the program just the way it is!!!


Ken
SSP #6
Unfortunately Ken it's not exactly a successful program if just you and a few others like it while the rest of the world does something else. It has to be generally popular. Or at least the early stages do - or you simply won't get any participation. Little participation means death to an incredibly brave and potentially awesome SSP.
I believe we should be thinking LESS ABOUT OURSELVES AND WHAT WE LIKE AND MORE ABOUT WHAT OTHERS WOULD BE ATTRACTED TO.
Gordon
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Old Nov 30, 2009, 12:01 PM
I'm all about that bass
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United States, IN, Indianapolis
Joined Feb 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aeajr View Post
I have promoted the LSF program in my club. The guys look at Level 5 and walk away because they are not every likely to have the opportunity to even try that, so why even start the program. Over and over I get this and I fully understand. That is how I looked at it the first 10 times someone tried to get me to start the LSF tasks.
I never understood this logic. Each level is a finish line. Each level is an acheavement. By finishing the first level you get a membership number, membership in the association, and the right to display your level on the wings of your planes. <shrug>

As a show of solidarity and my small way of showing some respect to Steve and his family I'm going to make the effort to do Copper. I just looked over the requirements and if I have added this all up right Copper requires 2 hours 15 minutes of flying and 3 landings within 3 meters (some of those landings have to coincide with long flights). To me, this seems like a challenging enough task to make the goal of acheaving the Copper level rewarding, at least to me. I have not been flying RC gliders for 20 years but I have been flying them for 15 years now. I don't know if I will try for any other "metals" after Copper. Either way finishing Copper will be someting I'll be proud of and I'll be proud to have a SSP membership number. I just filled out the form to get the Copper level started.

For years there has been talk, talk, talk on rcgroups and other places about self paced self recognition programs. The SSP is not the program I would have devised but then I did not devise a program. To my knowledge, only one person actually stepped up and did something. Come on, peeps. 2 hours 15 minutes of flying. I think that is the least we can do.

Ryan
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Old Nov 30, 2009, 04:05 PM
I'm all about that bass
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United States, IN, Indianapolis
Joined Feb 2004
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Quick question

For the 8 spot landings for Copper, can an electric sailplane be used? I think so but I'm not 100% sure based on the rules for the precision landing flights. Just wanted to confirm this.

Thanks!

Ryan
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Old Nov 30, 2009, 07:26 PM
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Redcliff Alberta
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Welcome Ryan. Thats a good way of looking at it, each level is an entity unto it's self.

I would far rather end this life being an SSP member at the Copper level and knowing I did my best, then just flying "what ever", "when ever", and never being a part of something GREAT.


Ken
SSP #6
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Old Dec 01, 2009, 07:26 AM
founder of the SSP
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Walkerton, Indiana
Joined Jul 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rdwoebke View Post
For the 8 spot landings for Copper, can an electric sailplane be used? I think so but I'm not 100% sure based on the rules for the precision landing flights. Just wanted to confirm this.

Thanks!

Ryan
Yes you can. Just follow the launch rules for using your "invisable winch". I like electrics and am glad we have them included in the program.
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Old Dec 02, 2009, 03:35 PM
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Walkerton, Indiana
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Where's all our slope guys at? I need to hear from you. I've been talking to Joe and we have a new game plan we would like to discuss real quick with everyone. But we will need the slope guys help. Here's what we're talking about briefly.
We're thinking about a small, quick change to Bronze and a bigger change to Silver. We're thinking of making them a little easier and having slope re-done for Bronze and continued through Silver. Then there would be two advanced halves of the program. One for slope and one for TD. You could choose to do both at the same time or just one. It wouldn't matter.
This solves several concerns people have had. One it brings the "this or that" back that a lot of people like. It also makes the main part of the program less involved and less daunting to those just starting out. It then allows the advanced parts to be more involved and difficult. By making that small distinction between the two it should solve the problem of the "whole" looking so scary to some. It would be a good way to please the greatest number of people I think. At the same time it would keep the record keeping and paperwork to a minimum for us. What do you all think?
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Old Dec 02, 2009, 03:44 PM
Ricky Windsock
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USA, FL, Sanford
Joined Nov 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Boone View Post
We're thinking about a small, quick change to Bronze and a bigger change to Silver. We're thinking of making them a little easier and having slope re-done for Bronze and continued through Silver. Then there would be two advanced halves of the program. One for slope and one for TD. You could choose to do both at the same time or just one. It wouldn't matter.What do you all think?
Sounds fantastic to me.
Great solution!
Gordon
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Old Dec 02, 2009, 07:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Boone View Post
Where's all our slope guys at? I need to hear from you. I've been talking to Joe and we have a new game plan we would like to discuss real quick with everyone. But we will need the slope guys help. Here's what we're talking about briefly.
We're thinking about a small, quick change to Bronze and a bigger change to Silver. We're thinking of making them a little easier and having slope re-done for Bronze and continued through Silver. Then there would be two advanced halves of the program. One for slope and one for TD. You could choose to do both at the same time or just one. It wouldn't matter.
This solves several concerns people have had. One it brings the "this or that" back that a lot of people like. It also makes the main part of the program less involved and less daunting to those just starting out. It then allows the advanced parts to be more involved and difficult. By making that small distinction between the two it should solve the problem of the "whole" looking so scary to some. It would be a good way to please the greatest number of people I think. At the same time it would keep the record keeping and paperwork to a minimum for us. What do you all think?
I fly both thermal and slope.

I like the approach you state here.
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Old Dec 03, 2009, 05:02 AM
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Mapleton, Australia
Joined May 2003
21 Posts
Steve

[QUOTE=Steve Boone;13722657]Where's all our slope guys at? I need to hear from you.

Sent you a long reply which seems to have gone astray. Will re do it again tomorrow
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Old Dec 03, 2009, 09:09 PM
launch height can't fix stupid
United States, CA, Palmdale
Joined Jun 2005
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Did you send anything to me on the slope stuff?
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