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Old Jan 08, 2010, 12:04 PM
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I understand that many places do not support a DS task. Part of what I would like to see is people who enter the program being willing to do TD tasks when the slope task is not feasable (and vice versa), try both sides of the program anyway, or be willing to travel a bit to do a task. Branch out and meet some of us other people who share a similar passion/addiction/disease.

In the case of DS, it is highly addictive. Know plenty of people who drive over a thousand miles just to get their speed fix. Others are more fortunate and live in the middle of sites that can do it. Someone who is doing the DS task is probably willing to travel for the right conditions. Others will just have to DS their house.
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Old Jan 09, 2010, 04:04 AM
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What all can I put in the first routine (R1)? I'm thinking 12-20 maneuvers, 5-10 passes, no time limit. (at least this time) Sound ok? I know I'm going to hear this so I'm going to say it up front. Not all ships will be able to do every maneuver. You're going to need a ship with ailerons, elevator and a rudder. This is the price of wanting more than just "time" for the determining factor so it will stay fresh, fun and interesting. A RE (rudder, elevator) ship isn't going to cut it. That's just the way it's going to have to be. We've went back and re-worked the program so we could include slope again. I'm sorry, but it isn't going to be possible to keep it fair making it do-able with a Gentle Lady.
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Old Jan 09, 2010, 04:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by corsha99 View Post
Didn't look at the silver level very close before. Would suggest replacing 2 of the 3 aero routines with different tasks.

For the R2 task, I suggest an F3F type task. Complete the run in less than 75 seconds. Repeat 10 times with every other attempt being completed a bit faster. Something like 75, 70, 65, 60, 55 secs.

For the R3 task, how about the DS task. 10 consecutive DS circuits with a time less than 75 secs. Repeat 10 times with every other attempt being completed a bit faster. Something like 75, 70, 65, 60, 55 secs.

Trying to put a time constraint on it that is at least acheivable by newbies at first but will challenge them at the end. Problem with the F3F and DS task is that they are very slope conditions dependent. Also, an experienced DS'er can probably crank out 10 laps faster than 55 secs if they are creative in how they do it. The big boys going for the top speeds have lap times that average around 4 secs but they are going 350+ mph.

Also, limits the number of aero routines that need to be developed. In my opinion, each aero routine should be run multiple times to get the time commitment up on those.

Thoughts or comments?
DS will stay out until Advanced. F3F is a possibility. How do you plan to determine distance between turns and time? I know little to nothing about F3F. Give me some usable parameters.
However, for now, let's work on getting Bronze done. I'll draw the arresti chart by hand if I have to. I'm considering buying a program that allows me to do it though. I have to check and see if I have Microsoft Visio 2007 and if it will run on Windows 7. It's also possible to pay someone to do the charts as needed.
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Old Jan 09, 2010, 11:03 AM
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For F3F, go to my previous post that has links in it.
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...&postcount=784

The rules for F3F are pretty specific. Simplified highlights are poles 100 meters apart. Enter the course on one end heading to the other, turn around once the nose of the sailplane crosses an imaginary plane, repeat 9 times, and exit out the same end as the start. Time starts when sailplane crosses the start plane and ends when the sailplane exits the course after a complete run.

For the aero routine, just spell it out in words. something like...
Pass 1, from right to left, 3 level rolls to the right, 1 loop returning to same start altitude, ..........

Will look for a recent slope aerobatic contest that was done to give all of us some starting point.
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Old Jan 09, 2010, 11:21 AM
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Check these out for info. The first link to the pdf document is really good. The last 2 have routines in them already.
http://www.southernsoaringclub.org.z...10-aerobat.PDF
http://www.slopeaerobatics.com
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=946985
http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1165858

This link has got a ton of info as well.
http://users.ompac.net.au/~iancole/default.htm

We would probably be well served to get Ian, from the above link, to participate in this.

Steve, I will try to help with this later today. Bunch going on right now that I need to get back to doing.
Cory
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Old Jan 10, 2010, 03:15 PM
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Aerobatic routine R1

How about this for an aerobatic routine, just to get the conversation started.

Starting with wings level from the right to left...
Pass 1: 1 inside loop, exit horizontal, 1.5 rolls to right (exit inverted), 0.5 outside vertical loop
Pass 2: 0.25 roll to left, horizontal knife edge for 1 or more seconds, 0.5 inside horizontal loop
Pass 3: 0.75 rolls to the right (exit inverted), 0.25 outside loop to vertical, 0.5 vertical roll, 0.25 outside loop to horizontal, horizontal flight for 3 or more seconds, 0.5 rolls to the right, 0.5 inside vertical loop
Pass 4: 3.0 rolls to the left, 0.5 inside vertical loop (exit inverted)
Pass 5: 0.5 rolls to the right, 1 outside vertical loop (exit inverted), 0.5 roll to the right, 0.5 inside vertical loop
Pass 6: inverted flight for 3 or more seconds, 0.25 roll to the left, 0.5 inside horizontal loop
Pass 7: horizontal knife edge for 3 or more seconds, 0.5 roll to right, 0.5 inside horizontal loop
Pass 8: 0.25 roll to the left, start inside loop, exit inverted at a 45 deg dive angle, 0.5 roll to the right, start inside loop, exit inverted at a 45 deg dive angle, 0.5 roll to the left, .125 inside loop to horizontal flight.

and end routine. Think it works out to exit the routine right side up and wings level. Uses all of the skills that were learned in the Bronze level.

This is a very specific routine as spelled out. I spelled out the motion of the sailplane as opposed to using maneuver names like an Immelman turn or Cuban 8. You will notice that some of the turns at the end of a pass are horizontal and some are vertical. That was part of the point in spelling out a routine.

Thought, comments?
Cory
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Old Jan 10, 2010, 03:31 PM
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I like it. What's everyone else think?
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Old Jan 10, 2010, 03:34 PM
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Looks liks a challenge. BUT on pass 6 and 7 you are ending with a knife edge 1/2 loop. Very tuff to do unless you have a very hefty rudder even with something with a motor on the front.

Looks good tho.


Ken
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Old Jan 10, 2010, 03:40 PM
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DAMIT ALL TO HELL!! I should of read closer. HORIZONTAL LOOP!!!!! Not vertical loop. You are just holding that position while turning around to make the next pass .


I'll walk away now with tail between my leg's .

Ken
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Old Jan 10, 2010, 03:49 PM
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Please double check it all. Went through it a couple of times and think it ends with wings level. That was part of the reason for adding vertical and horizontal labels to the loops.
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Old Jan 12, 2010, 06:36 AM
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Ok, I had a chance to draw it and fly it on the sim. It's a bit too complicated with roll directions being called out. The normal is to have the pilot chose direction. I see why you did it though. Also took a bit to figure out that you wanted turns when you called for horizontal loops. I did a bit of work to it and here's what I came up with.
Starting with level flight:
pass 1: 1 roll, 1/2 roll to inverted, 1/2 outside loop(exit upright)
pass 2: inside loop, 1/2 inside loop (exit inverted)
pass 3: outside loop, 1/2 roll to upright, 1/2 inside loop with 1/2 roll on the upline (comes out inverted on the top)
pass 4: 1/4 roll to knife edge (for 1/3 of box), 180* knife edge turn
pass 5: 1/4 roll (to upright), 3 rolls (center box), 180* turn
pass 6: 4 point roll, 1/4 roll, 180* knife edge turn
pass 7: 1/4 roll to upright, snap roll to level flight and exit
What do you think?
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Old Jan 12, 2010, 08:50 AM
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On the slope you "normally" want to roll/turn away from the slope which is why I was specify directions.

Knife edge turn is something different. If you don't like the .5 horizontal loop, just say 180 deg turn with an exit condition, if needed.

Pass 6, 4 point rolls are learned in the next level and should not be included here.

Pass 7, spell out a snap roll or at least have a definition source in the task descriptions.

Did you think that passes 6,7,and 8 were too complicated in my write up. All it was is inverted flight, turn, a long knife edge, turn, Cuban eight, and finished.

In fairness to the G&R task, I think what you came up with is too easy in comparison.

Below is my original routine simplified

Pass 1: 1 inside loop, 1.5 rolls to inverted, 0.5 outside vertical loop
Pass 2: horizontal knife edge for 1 or more seconds, 180 deg turn
Pass 3: roll to inverted, 0.25 outside loop to vertical, 0.5 vertical roll, 0.25 outside loop to horizontal exiting upright, horizontal flight for 3 or more seconds, roll to inverted, 0.5 inside vertical loop
Pass 4: 3.0 axial rolls, 0.5 inside vertical loop (exit inverted)
Pass 5: 1 outside vertical loop (exit inverted), roll to upright, 0.5 inside vertical loop
Pass 6: inverted flight for 3 or more seconds, 180deg turn
Pass 7: horizontal knife edge for 3 or more seconds, 180deg turn
Pass 8: Cuban 8

In fairness to the G&R task, I also think this is too easy in comparison but have to have something.
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Old Jan 12, 2010, 10:02 AM
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-First off what do you mean by horizontal loop? To my knowledge there's either a turn or a knife edge turn in a horizontal plane.
-Agreed 4 point should stay out until next level. I got ahead of myself.
-Snaps should stay out as well until next level. Same reason.
-Yes, having every little detail (left, right) bogs down the directions. Also, I plan to make the aresti drawings for this as well. Roll direction is a pilot's decision generally. Also, remember we want to design a program not teach how to fly. Teaching is what the forums are for. If someone doesn't know what something is then they should research it. We can list links on the site to help with that. I've already done that for understanding Aresti.
-Is a humpty bump possible in slope?
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Old Jan 12, 2010, 10:41 AM
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I notice that there is not a Bunt in there as well. Bunt is an outside loop. but you push down instead of up.


Ken
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Old Jan 12, 2010, 10:46 AM
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When I was specifying a horizontal loop, I was specify a turn with a specific exit condition. Didn't want someone to start a nice, gentle, barely banked turn, exit the turn, roll level, and then start the next aerobatic pass. Was trying to make it difficult by forcing someone to exit the turn on edge and then do a knife edge, etc.

Doesn't matter though if you only evaluate each pass, which I am fine with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Boone View Post
-
-Is a humpty bump possible in slope?
yes, just need the right conditions and/or speed to do it. As described it is part of an inverted, rolling top hat.

As a person progresses through the program they should be learning what it takes to actually pull off these maneuvers. Cuban 8 is a good example. Enter the maneuver wrong and you will have a difficult time completing it.
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