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Old Oct 16, 2009, 01:41 PM
founder of the SSP
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Walkerton, Indiana
Joined Jul 2004
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Tim: Sorry to hear you didn't get your time. At least you had a fun and got to fly. More than we're getting around here.
NEWS:I would like to congratulate Gordon and Ingo on becoming members number 7 & 8. Great job guys!
There's only two more spots left in the first 10. Not to mention there's only one more opening to be in the single digit club.
We just hit the 50 mark!!! I know it's not a huge number. It's a major milestone to me though so I just had to share.
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Last edited by Steve Boone; Oct 16, 2009 at 02:29 PM. Reason: Added more news
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Old Oct 16, 2009, 05:22 PM
Registered User
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Redcliff Alberta
Joined Jul 2008
584 Posts
Thanks for rubbing it in Tim (flying during lunch break's Must be nice!!).That thirty minute wall is about to be broke ,just a matter of time.

Weclome and congrat's Gordon and Ingo. It's a nice feeling ,knowing that you have "The Right Stuff" and can stand shoulder to shoulder with the BEST,cuz you are one of the BEST. Just think of all those great soaring pilot's that are yet to come and follow in your foot step's.


Ken
SSP# 6
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Old Oct 17, 2009, 04:36 PM
founder of the SSP
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Walkerton, Indiana
Joined Jul 2004
1,529 Posts
NEWS: The site is up and running. I've just about got it all updated. The tasks requirements are posted and look to be right. They still need proof read but I needed to get them up so people could refer to them. If you see something odd let us know so we can fix it. The application form is working now so that will make things a lot easier for me to get people signed up with out having to do several e-mails each way. Which will also free up some time to fix bugs in the program. The blog is going so you can make fun of me or shower pity on me which ever you see fit. The Bronze form for all that aproved it still managed to have an error. The ladder tasks do not require a time/distance to be signed for. Just a witness that you did it correctly. You're going to need to take notes to keep track if you're like me. The landings have to be in their required distance but there's no need to document them unless you want to for bragging rights. If your witness won't be there for the whole task set have them sign your notes and have someone else sign the last flights and then send the notes with your forms. That way all flights are witnessed and signed for. The requirements are easy enough to follow for me because I wrote them so I knew what I was talking about. (well most of the time ) If you have any questions or think something could or should be better explained once again, please let us know and we'll do our best to fix it right away. With a little help from everyone we should be able to get everything sorted out the rest of the way in a timely manner. Thanks guys!
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Old Oct 17, 2009, 06:11 PM
Ricky Windsock
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USA, FL, Sanford
Joined Nov 2008
1,550 Posts
Great job Steve and Dennis on a great job on the website. Very professional indeed.
A few little suggestions.
How about an email address to send photos etc to add to the gallery.
The Contact Us link at the bottom of the page should at least have an email address associated with it. Same for the photos of Pres, VP etc.
The link to products doesn't provide a way of actually ordering a product. (Email address etc.)
Thanks also for making me lucky number 7.
Congrats to Ingo #8
Gordon
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Old Oct 17, 2009, 06:34 PM View Post
Serafin
A moderator felt this post violated the following rule: Cross-posting. It is temporarily hidden while Serafin edits it. Show it to me anyway.
Old Oct 18, 2009, 03:51 PM
SoarNut
spinolio's Avatar
Grand Rapids, MI
Joined Apr 2005
372 Posts
Well, I started my SSP today and got the 8 landings in. The weather was cool and cloudy, but lift was to be found and had one particularly good thermal.

I'm taking the tasks in order and hope to have it done this season.

Dennis
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Old Oct 18, 2009, 07:56 PM
founder of the SSP
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Walkerton, Indiana
Joined Jul 2004
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NEWS: Silver level has been posted to the web site. Plan on doing some major flying from here on out guys. We said in the begining this wasn't going to be easy.
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Old Oct 18, 2009, 08:55 PM
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Redcliff Alberta
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NO KIDDING!!! Love the "A" frame flight's, going to make it most entertaining(read frustrating) .


Ken
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Old Oct 18, 2009, 09:15 PM
Balsa breaks better
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Buchanan Mi
Joined Apr 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L-Spatz
NO KIDDING!!! Love the "A" frame flight's, going to make it most entertaining(read frustrating) .


Ken
That should read "Challenging", the way Steve thinks it should be. I agree with him 100%!

I have looked over the web site and it looks pretty good, if Steve and I have missed anything, have a typo, please let us know.

I know the weather you had Dennis, it was the same down here. I forgot to get Steve to sign for the 10 minute task I could salvage out of the ladder attemp, 28:38 for an 8 minute step! Steve was right, I should have landed at 8 and got back up!!!!

Joe
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Old Oct 18, 2009, 10:28 PM
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Redcliff Alberta
Joined Jul 2008
584 Posts
Joe. I was thinking of it will be entertaining for the non-soaring pilot's in the club to watch me yelling at the Lift God's ,as I blow another task attempt .

Other than that, it's all good.


Ken
SSP#6
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Old Oct 19, 2009, 05:46 AM
Balsa breaks better
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Buchanan Mi
Joined Apr 2005
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L-Spatz
Joe. I was thinking of it will be entertaining for the non-soaring pilot's in the club to watch me yelling at the Lift God's ,as I blow another task attempt .

Other than that, it's all good.


Ken
SSP#6
So I have fellow entertainers

I regularly take my turn on stage to entertain the guys at the sod farm, feels good to put a smile on some ones face even if I do not figuer it out until I get home

Joe
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Old Oct 19, 2009, 07:38 AM
founder of the SSP
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Walkerton, Indiana
Joined Jul 2004
1,529 Posts
You should have listened to me Joe. Now you get to start over as it will be a different day. I was plagued with breakdowns all morning. First my winch, then my retiever. Never managed over 5:50 all day. Who cares, it was still better than working and I got to visit with all of my friends!
As far as the program goes. It's coming together nicely I think. It sure isn't some watered down easy way out now is it. Just think, it's not going to get any easier either!!!

************************************************** ************************************************** ************
NEWS: Remember to check back on the website every so often until the program is completed as we’re making updates to the task requirements. This is being done to keep things running smoothly and to the tasks as challenging as possible. I added a note to the Add Em’ Ups section about maximum flight times. This was suggested by an LSF officer and we agreed it was a good thing as it makes the task sets more challenging. The LSF uses half of the total. Joe’s favorite number is 3 however. So we’re going to use 1/3 to make it even more interesting.
Gold is next up to complete. We have some interesting ideas we're tossing back and forth. If we get the bugs figured out I think it will have some interesting twists. It will probably be controversial as well. The hardest levels of any program aren't for everyone. We'll see how it shakes out in the end. Only time will tell.
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Old Oct 22, 2009, 01:11 PM
Ricky Windsock
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USA, FL, Sanford
Joined Nov 2008
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You have got to be kidding!

Hey guys,
I have made a few comments in this thread and have been a little vocal about my thoughts on the Sportsmans program and the planning of the future levels etc. I have been gentle with voicing my ideas until now, as I believe anyone stepping up to the plate like Steve and Joe have done need a ton of encouragement from the rest of us for their efforts to continue. It's just that I got home from a 4 day trip away with the wife to read the Silver Level that was posted while I was away and I feel I need to speak up.
YOU HAVE GOT TO BE KIDDING!!!
This is just not right. Please take this as constructive criticism Steve and Joe. I want to see this program be a success (just as you do) and I want to be able to encourage others to participate in it and be part of it too. Alas that will never happen the way it is going.
You simply WILL NEVER get the participation this program deserves with this ridiculous repetition of the same tasks sets over and over (and over) with what appears to be a total lack of knowledge and disregard for how long such a task set will take to accomplish for any dedicated and expert pilot - - - Let alone the beginners, "yet to begin" flyers and skulkers out there, which this program needs to be trying to attract.
This SILVER level has a total of 3,345 minute of Thermal Duration flying in the task sets (without considering the XCountry which would only be another 30 minutes or so.)
3,345 minutes of Thermal Duration soaring equals 55.75 hours of required Thermal flying for Silver before moving on to Gold.
If you simply keep some record of the total amount of flight time you currently AVERAGE per flying day you will find it is a lot less than 100 minutes. (A beginner is flat out staying up for 20 minutes for one flight on their best day.) The average sailplane pilot will take a couple of years of GOOD soaring weather and GOOD luck - just to complete the Silver level. (Most will spend more than one season doing the Bronze.)
I thought the Bronze Level was bad enough with a total of 465 minutes of Thermal flying required. I believe most beginners will find this level too hard and give up or lose interest.
I can guarantee you that 90% of the 50 plus starters you already have for the program will never complete Bronze level because they will look ahead at this huge jump in required flight time in Silver to not just do something difficult once - - Not try hard to do it twice but actually be required to complete almost every task three times.
WHAT ON EARTH FOR?
WHAT IS THE POINT we are trying to make?
WHY DO WE NEED TO DO ANY OF THESE LADDER, "A FRAME" OR "ADD EM UPS" MORE THAN ONCE?
This absolute marathon of repetitive glider guiding makes the LSF wizards that included a very long and boring 480 minute slope flight in their top Level 5 look even smarter than they really were at the time. Why - because people looked at the LSF program when it was released and believed it could be done and was worth doing but most importantly every level taught the pilot something new and he was a better pilot as a result.
This program simply will not appeal to the very ones it is supposed to encourage because it is WAY WAY too heavy on repetition of the same thing.

If going from 465 min at Bronze to 3345 mins at Silver is any indication - then at that rate it looks like Gold , Platinum and Titanium will be an entire lifetime of threepeats of Thermal flying tasks without going home for dinner. An entire new generation of soaring pilots will have been born, lived and died and none will ever get even close.

My understanding was that this program was generally percieved as an alternate to the traditional LSF Program - to attract those that wanted an accomplishment program but did not want to compete or wanted to fly electrics. It should still maintain the stated goals of the LSF and I quote. - -

"This system recognizes individual proficiency and accomplishment in RC soaring through a set of successively harder tasks that measure the sailplane pilot's skills and knowledge of soaring. The modeler has an opportunity to achieve these specific tasks with a sailplane of his or her choice. These tasks are designed to challenge and entertain, while allowing the pilot to measure and improve his flying skills and understanding of model soaring against a proven set of standards."

The LSF has been emminently successful because the program is do-able (but not by just anyone.) Lets make sure this new program actually gets done - by someone! -- and at the same time attracts a bunch of others that want to join the fun.

I recommend at absolute minimum we should reduce the Silver task sets to "Get it done once". That would still be a required TD flight time of at least 1150 minutes for the entire Silver level. (Or 2.5 times the flight time required to do the Bronze level.) Still way too much too.

To make this program a "Marathon" and require each set be done 3 times, adds up to a program that few will actually participate in past the first rung of the ladder - Copper.
I've had my rant.
What do the rest of you guys out there think?
Let's hear some other opinions too.
Gordon.

PS. I am in favor of anything that improves my skills as a contest pilot and I am participating in this program because it will do just that - for me. I just know even as a professional sales person I will never be able to sell this program as it stands to any others successfully and I believe as a result the entire SSP program will be doomed before it got started.
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Old Oct 22, 2009, 03:23 PM
Registered User
Afton VA
Joined Sep 2002
461 Posts
I've got to agree with Gordon. You've lost me, since this is no longer a fun program. I will finish up Bronze, since I started it, but there's nothing about the Silver that makes it worth doing.

This has very little to do with skill and more with endurance. I think one of each task is sufficient to show skill. I think a greater variety of tasks is okay, but not repeats of the same thing. This is going so far out in left field, I don't think LSF should sponsor or approve it.

A non-contest contest format would be way better than 3 of everything. 10 min task with 100" landing tape points for a total of 5000 points. Any flight not on the landing tape is a 0 flight. That means you would do at least 8 near perfect flights or a lot of "just made the tape" ones. You could have two set of these.

In Gold you could say 10,000 points with 1 perfect flight -- 700 points. This will improve skill.

The LSF SSAP program was going to be basically the same as the original one with added methods of launch, but without the contest requirements. The contest requirements could be replaced with a non-contest - contest format.

I would seriously consider doing the LSF tasks and replace the contest part with an equivalent set of task points (no position or min participant requirement). That way all your work is done and it won't be so rediculous (I do appreciate your hard work though).

I think all the work has been done if you use the SAP program as it is with the contests changed to "do it yourself" contest tasks. If you want to add something different, I think the "OR" part could also be geared toward HL. EG: Three three min flights in a 10 min window, 5 2 min flights in a 10:30 window, or something close to the F3K rules. (that might mean 3 options for tasks). This will definitely open things up to many more participants.

I will help with an equivalent non-contest task group, and I will provide "mark it yourself"
3 meter landing tapes (grometed) for $10 or fully marked ones (both 1, 1.5,2, 2.5 and 3 meter, and NATs type 100" 1" increments on each tape) for $25 plus shipping. Of course, I would like all landing tasks to be based on 100" and not have to add the extra few inches to make it meters. Standard 100" marked tapes are $20 each.

I think you should scap everything and follow LSF tasks or start Silver with LSF level III tasks and go from there. (you can make provisions for existing coppers to count that as Level I, and count any bronze tasks that have been done toward any equivalent in LSF Level II)

Tom B
tom@adesigner.com
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Old Oct 22, 2009, 04:21 PM
Pompano Hill Flyers
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Coral Springs FL
Joined May 2002
675 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by aussief3b
......This SILVER level has a total of 3,345 minute of Thermal Duration flying in the task sets (without considering the XCountry which would only be another 30 minutes or so.)
3,345 minutes of Thermal Duration soaring equals 55.75 hours of required Thermal flying to move on to Gold. .......

Based on this progression I foresee the final Titanium level task as a short 1 hr TD flight on Mars!


Seriously... Did those '3's get copied over because this was the third level or is aussief3b correct that this level requires 3345 minutes of mostly triplicated flight tasks?

Also where are the slope tasks for the "or?"



Radian

www.phflyers.com
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