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Old Sep 20, 2009, 09:35 PM
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Walkerton, Indiana
Joined Jul 2004
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Yes there was. Copper will be landings. Slope in Bronze will allow for hand catch as well. TD will never be hand catch. The first page of this thread has a requirements sheet. It changes from time to time to adjust for new rules and such. Everyone should make a habit of reading it every once in a while to see what's new or to see explanations of things like what is (basic) or (A1). At least until the program is fully designed and things settle down.
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I started soaring seriously last season. By that I mean, I had tried it a bit but wasn't getting anywhere. Then I met the Red Hen guys on here and went to visit them. 5 minutes was monumental! It didn't take but about 3 trips out and I did 48 minutes. I've done bunches of 30 minute and quite a few 45 minute flights already. I don't really think 10-15 minutes is much of a challenge any more. Mind you, all my first season was with a Sophisticated Lady, a TH Vista and even a couple of HL gliders as well. Nothing fancy or expensive. Getting a plane up there and keeping it there for a good period of time is tough. The 1 hour still eludes me. Learning the thermal cycles and reading the air well come during extended flights. One of the biggest things I heard in the beginning was that this was going to be a watered down program. Well it's not going to be so. Not on my watch. I don't want a program that can be finished in a season or two by the average flier. The average sport flier should take several seasons, at least, to complete the program. However, when they do they can hold their heads high that they earned it! They also will have learned a lot. The long flights are not the whole of the program though. There's a lot of other things coming up. Add em' up, timed flights and ladders will make you cringe as well. I fought all weekend to get a ladder done and it never happened. I would much rather made a long flight instead. This was never designed to be a beginners program. The first level is easy enough for a beginner to do and still give them a workout. The second one will challenge most for a season, maybe even two. I doubt I'll make Bronze this year as our season is about over. My point is, there are people who want to see how fast they can do a program, and that's cool. Most of us want something to challenge us for several seasons at the least. Silver is going to be a lot more tasks to do. Gold is going to be the most controversial. Platinum will be more than a lot will want to do. Titanium isn't going to be for everyone, but then again, neither is LSF LV. With so many wanting the program finished and final. It doesn't allow the luxury of redesign. We would have lost more that way. I (sorry Joe) WE won't be accused of being light weights when this program is done.
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Old Sep 20, 2009, 09:47 PM
Ricky Windsock
aussief3b's Avatar
USA, FL, Sanford
Joined Nov 2008
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No worries mate. Thats' why America is so great. We can all have our point of view.
You guys have done a great job.
Just want to see the program succeed for all the effort you guys have put in and the measure of success ultimately means you need lots of participation. If only a handful of fliers actually pursue the levels past copper it will not have achieved its's purpose.
I think the program is looking very scary to anyone except a fanatic.
You've got me. I will work at it regardless because I think I am a fanatic. Make it as hard as you like. Just don't make it boring with the same stuff over and over.
Time will tell
Gordon
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Old Sep 20, 2009, 10:20 PM
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Redcliff Alberta
Joined Jul 2008
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Gee's, Gordon you sound just like me( but with the funny accent')being a fanatic,or is that lunatic? My family thinks I'm the latter . I look forward to the XC and O&R task's for next summer. So far I don't see any hardship's with the program,tho the repeted task's seem over done, if that is how the executive see it,then the challenge is for us to do it.

As the Olyimpic's are here this winter, "Steve and Joe have lit the torch", how many of us will pick it up and run with it, only time will tell. But I do know it will be a hell of a fun ride.

Ken
ASP#3
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Old Sep 21, 2009, 07:48 AM
founder of the SSP
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Walkerton, Indiana
Joined Jul 2004
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Sorry guys, after re-reading my post from last night it did sound a bit defensive. It was late.
I would have liked to of put some of the newer ideas in first. More ladders and add em' up. Then came back with the longer flights. It would have been hard to side them with the slope stuff IMHO. Not a problem in silver because there is no slope. It was never intended to be around through the whole program as there's a new slope program out there already. I also remember last year when I first started soaring. I wanted to learn TD, then someone told me in TD contest they landed after a short time and tried to get landing points. My first words were, "So where's the duration part?. What do you mean land? I just finally got to where I want to be, way up there. Now you want me to land?" Soon after I got it though. After being able to actually soar regualrly 10-15 and several 20-30 minute flights later, things started getting stale. Then I took a try at the contest style stuff coached on by our LV guy at the field. It was surprisingly fun after all. I really like ladder stuff personally. It still kills me to leave good lift to land though. My point being that most new guys aren't bored with long flights. Intimidated a bit, yes, but they want to soar, not land. After completing the Bronze level that will be getting a bit stale for them as they will have become better pilots. Then they will be looking for a new challenge.
Welcome to Silver Level. That's when we get heavy into ladder work and timed flight. Now at a certain point I see them going, "this is starting to feel like work". That's why we put in add em' up. This let's them have a more relaxed day as flight durations and exact times aren't as important, just the total duration for the day. Want a long flight, go for it. "Bob" shows up at the field and you want to cut your flight short to BS, go ahead, no big deal. Lift is light, well you can still make progress with a bunch of short flights. End of the day comes and you met your time but had various flight times and no particular order to have to have them in. Silver is HUGE. Lots of tasks to do as there is no "this or that" style. It is a "do it all" style.
Then Gold Level shows up and like a good book or movie, throws everyone a curve. Nope, we're not saying anymore at this point. It's not a curve if you see it coming silly.
Then we get to platinum and Titanium. Not many are going to want to go there probably. It will be for the serious soaring pilots only. Lots of hard task sets that will really set you apart kind of stuff. Don't look for an 8 hr slope flight, it won't be there. Slope may come back one final time in Titanium, but I'm not sure yet.
Ok, so now you have a look into my thought process. I know a lot of you have been flying for a long time, I haven't. I know a lot of you are new to soaring as well. Stick with it, it gets easier fast and you'll be glad for the challenges. I would rather start a program knowing it will be challenging, than start a program and be bored after a few times out. Will this program lose some people? Yes, that's just the way life is. Hopefully, it will entertain even more though. Will we ever get it done? Yes, but it takes time. This isn't my job, even though lately it has taken up a big chunk of my life. Thank god the kids are all gone and the wife is very understanding. It's a huge amount of work to do. Once we get caught up it won't be so bad. Bear with us, please. And remember, this is a SPORTSMAN"S program, not a competition, SO HAVE FUN!!!
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Old Sep 22, 2009, 12:54 PM
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United States, NC, Cajah's Mountain
Joined Oct 2006
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Windependence,

You won't be alone. I'm going to be using my scratch built, balsa wing, foam fuse, Zepher HLG converted to electric to do the Copper level. Span is only 52" but she glides all day long.

Regards,
Don
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Old Sep 22, 2009, 03:53 PM
founder of the SSP
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Walkerton, Indiana
Joined Jul 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Don Bourdon
Windependence,

You won't be alone. I'm going to be using my scratch built, balsa wing, foam fuse, Zepher HLG converted to electric to do the Copper level. Span is only 52" but she glides all day long.

Regards,
Don
Cool! Now there's a guy that likes a challenge. How about a pic of that Zepher. I've actually been doing mine with several planes to get an idea of difficulty. Ok, and to just make it more fun. Falcon 880, Ava Flapped, Radian 2M, and now the Radian 120". I did about half my landings with the Radian 2M. It just shows, it's not the plane as much as the pilot. I'm thinking about breaking out the Dynaflite Skeeter HL next to see what I can do with that.
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Old Sep 22, 2009, 05:50 PM
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Redcliff Alberta
Joined Jul 2008
584 Posts
I just picked up the "proof" for the embroidery that is going on the back of my new fall coat. There are 85,000 stitch's, yes thats eighty five THOUSAND !

It is going to look so sweet,tho I had to change the color of the lettering to silver,but Platinum and Titanium are also a silver color are they not??


Ken
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Old Sep 23, 2009, 08:01 AM
3 Sons - Legos and Lift
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Grand Rapids, MI
Joined Apr 2004
558 Posts
Use what you can

For me, the plane I use for the tasks has been a matter of scheduling.

Aside from several landings and a couple of the 5-min flights, which I did with a 3m RES, all other tasks have been with an old DLG. I can put it in the back of the car and fly during the lunch hour. Its low visibility ceiling of about 700 ft usually means that for a longer flight you have to find at least 3 thermals. A couple of times this summer that has worked out.

Hopefully the weather will cooperate a few more times so I can finish Copper.

Tim
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Old Sep 23, 2009, 01:40 PM
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United States, NC, Cajah's Mountain
Joined Oct 2006
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Zepher

Hi Steve,

This is my Zepher. Wing is balsa and mono. Fuse is foam monoblock with fan fold foam sides and tail feathers. Had to make fuse larger than plan to fit the electronics. Acrylic paint on the foam. Turnigy 2822 motor and 8x6 prop; 800mah 2s lipo; 12A ESC; and Corona receiver for an AUW of 10oz.

Cheers,
Don
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Old Sep 26, 2009, 07:35 PM
Making wood fly since 2007
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USA, MN, Rochester
Joined Mar 2008
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I had another small window of time to get out and fly today. This time a called another glider guy and asked him if he had the time to join my with his 2M plane and he did. The weather today was upper 60's and partly cloudy, very scattered drizzle and one of those drizzle making clouds was nearby. There was basically no wind, The clouds that were overhead never really moved. That drizzle maker stayed put for an hour and a half but lucky for my it did not drizzle on me for most of my day. I could not find any real lift so I decided to work on my landings.

I decided to work on using the spoilers to aid me in my precision landings. I seem to either land very short or have way too much energy and overfly the landing tape. Deploying the spoilers slightly on my potential overfly landing attempts helped. Normally if I am too high coming into the landing tape I overfly because I don't want to give down elevator because that will just give me more speed on landing. But by deploying the spoilers a little I can drop that needed altitude without picking up unneeded speed. It was working very well. I was able to make 3 landings today that qualified for copper and two of those also qualified for my LSF 1 tasks. I only wish that I could have found a little lift for that needed 5 minutes flight. I made a little over 4 but never was able to hit the 5 minute mark.

So chalk off a few more requirements and hopefully I can get the rest completed before winter sets in.

Wayne
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Old Sep 26, 2009, 09:05 PM
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Redcliff Alberta
Joined Jul 2008
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Well done Wayne! Just a point of note, on full size sailplane's, the landing approch is set up so that you are running half spoiler's from the turn onto final till the start of the landing flair. By alway's setting up for half spoiler's, you can adjust for an under shoot by closing them briefly alowing you to float for a bit. Or to adjust for an overshoot by opening them briefly to steepen your aproch angle till you are back on the correct aproach path.




Ken
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Old Sep 26, 2009, 09:26 PM
Making wood fly since 2007
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Ken, thanks for the approach info, it just reinforces my decision to work spoilers on the landings. The other thing that has really helped was programming my radio with a mix of spoiler to the elevator. Now when I deploy the spoilers the elevator compensation is done automatically, before I was always afraid of deploying the spoilers close to the ground and nosing in the plane while trying to manually compensate with the elevator.

I really do believe that I can now get the landings done. Almost every landing I did today was within 5 meters of the "spot". I did try going back to no mix and was right back to being way under or way over the mark. I hope someday to be good enough to not need the programming mix but for now it is making my landings better.

Wayne
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Old Sep 26, 2009, 11:30 PM
Balsa breaks better
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Buchanan Mi
Joined Apr 2005
2,067 Posts
Ah, one of the pleasant suprises that I doubt Steve saw coming, guys helping each other out!

Another bit of advice, open the spoilers when you have a good deal of altitude. You can get a feel for what is going to happen at a safe hieght and also see if you need to adjust the compensation.
Even with compensation I find myself using the elevator to control airspeed and glide path.

Joe


Quote:
Originally Posted by Windependence
Ken, thanks for the approach info, it just reinforces my decision to work spoilers on the landings. The other thing that has really helped was programming my radio with a mix of spoiler to the elevator. Now when I deploy the spoilers the elevator compensation is done automatically, before I was always afraid of deploying the spoilers close to the ground and nosing in the plane while trying to manually compensate with the elevator.

I really do believe that I can now get the landings done. Almost every landing I did today was within 5 meters of the "spot". I did try going back to no mix and was right back to being way under or way over the mark. I hope someday to be good enough to not need the programming mix but for now it is making my landings better.

Wayne
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Old Sep 27, 2009, 12:41 AM
Making wood fly since 2007
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USA, MN, Rochester
Joined Mar 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Thermaler
Even with compensation I find myself using the elevator to control airspeed and glide path.

Joe
Where I was having issues was adjusting the needed elevator compenstaion as I changed the amount of spoiler on landing approaches. I would almost always overcompensate one way of the other when I changed the spoiler deployment. I would get ballooning or nose dives as I attempted to control the glide path and adjust for the changing spoilers. It had gotten so frustrating that I just gave up and did not use them for landings.

Now some of that is taken care of through the mix. It is just one less thing I need to focus on as I land.

Wayne
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Old Sep 27, 2009, 06:37 PM
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Redcliff Alberta
Joined Jul 2008
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OH YA BABY!!! Copper is finaly done and in the mail. Funny, the hardest one I found to do was the 10 minute slope flight with spot landing.I had the tape right up close to the edge, so that on all the overshoot's(no spoiler's available)a blip of up elevator and I was back out in the lift to work up to landing hight again and again and again. Looking forward to Bronze so that a simple hand catch is all that is needed.

Just to make it a bit more interesting,half the flight's were TD and half were slope.

Ken
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