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Old Nov 14, 2009, 04:19 PM
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I may be dating myself a bit here, but I built my first 4 channel and 6 channel radio's. Old Heathkit system's. It took an evening or two to build each of the servo's alone. Frightning to open the box and see hundred's of diode's and resister's,screw's,and bitty part's of all size's. I'll see if I can find an old pic somewhere.

How many new soaring pilot's will be starting out with a simple woodie R/E kit
(GL,Riser,Spirit,etc)as it's normal for most people to get started with the lowest initial cash start up?


Ken
SSP #6
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Old Nov 14, 2009, 05:31 PM
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Sorry Ken I started with foam all by myself after wrecking a Electra and Kyosho Soarus, but I moved onto wood after I learned how to fly. I have a GL, GI, and a Spirit 100. I think you just dated yourself Ken! My first radio was a AM two channel Futaba.
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Old Nov 14, 2009, 07:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by knormang View Post
Gordon, You are not alone, I shall be lucky if I live long enough to achieve the bronze level. I shall be 88 yrs. old this month so I am running out of time and breath.I shall start next spring and be very happy if I get through copper in one year!You guys who have soared in competitions should be pretty good judges of what is possible and reasonable, so I shall do my little bit and leave the more daunting tasks to you younguns!Good Luck.Aspirant45.
I think Mr. knormang is onto something here.... Where he says... "You guys who have soared in competitions should be pretty good judges of what is possible and reasonable."

I suggest instead Steve poll some of the LSF level V fliers for their opinion on things like the ladder flights. They are really masters with MANY years of experiance. Maybe they can comment on the difficulty of these levels better?

Radian
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Old Nov 14, 2009, 07:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Soar_dude View Post
Ralph a big part of this hobby is building. The build a woodie is to demostrate the ability of building a sailplane that can stand up to the rigors of platinum level. ARF,s and ARF moldies are nice way to get into the hobby. Rolling you own you gain so much satisfaction from building you own and seeing it airborne. This program is designed to broaden folks horizons for those that are ARF'ers.
We've long since evolved past that. We used to have to make our own radios too. I gave up wooden sailplanes years ago and have no desire to regress. I started out covering with silk or silkspan and dope - that would broaden some horizons. Now, if you let me do my own bagged or molded plane, then I'd be interested.

I also object to the arbitrary choice of which horizon I have to widen. Maybe require the events to be flown in 3 different time zones to boaden geographic horizons. Maybe fly in drag to broaden other areas... When you go from a simple achievment based system and start trying to improve peoples character you start down a slippery slope. RC soaring is already too much of a religion to some.
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Old Nov 14, 2009, 08:40 PM
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Ralph no amount of explaining it to you is not going to change your mind. Most kids nowadays are ARF'ers and are willing to trash it and by another one without another thought. Its your choice not build anymore and that is what this program is about a choice. As far as evolved past that why are Bubble dancers, Sky Bench Oly's, Houston Hawks, Maruders and a slew of others are still popular. Wood has evolved with the times too.
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Old Nov 15, 2009, 01:37 PM
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The program should be about accomplishment only, not experiences, values and horizons. If someone wants to buy a new moldie for every flight, what difference does that make? Just because you don't approve of someone's values should have nothing to do with a program like this.

I don't completely disagree with the self built part, but why does it have to be a woodie? The ultimate level of a program like this be better served by requiring one to build a state of the art bagged or molded plane.

I'm curious to why you think I'm the one who needs to change their mind. I think we'd have a better program if you'd change your mind.
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Old Nov 15, 2009, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph Weaver View Post
The program should be about accomplishment only, not experiences, values and horizons. If someone wants to buy a new moldie for every flight, what difference does that make? Just because you don't approve of someone's values should have nothing to do with a program like this.

I don't completely disagree with the self built part, but why does it have to be a woodie? The ultimate level of a program like this be better served by requiring one to build a state of the art bagged or molded plane.

I'm curious to why you think I'm the one who needs to change their mind. I think we'd have a better program if you'd change your mind.
Hear! Hear!
I have been back in the hobby for 10 months after a 23 year absence. I really aren't interested in building a woody when I can fly a moldie. I have looked up an old friend - David Vels http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/attac...9&d=1241486288from Brisbane Australia and he is building a moldie from scratch. Unfotunately his "home built moldie would not qualify for the upper echelons of the proposed SSP because it is not old enough technology. http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1139397Yet he and his Aussie mates are creating their moldie in the backyard garage. Its as home built as any Oly or other woodie.
Hey blokes - lets make the SSP a successful Sportsmans Soaring Program for the majority of non contest fliers - not an exclusive society of soaring fliers intent on just pleasing a minority.
Gordon
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Old Nov 15, 2009, 02:48 PM
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When you are setting up a program of hoops for all and any dogs to jump through, if you make all the hoops the same size to fit a terrier, the only dogs that can compete must be terrier sized dogs!Does that make sense? KenG.
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Old Nov 15, 2009, 03:05 PM
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I'm looking for a program that allows me to fly about any type of plane I want - I prefer electric powered, molded. Everyone should get a similar launch height, I'll use a 200m altitude cut off device. Rules (such as really tight landing circles - you can't dork an electric) should not favor one type of plane over another.

I also want to fly when and where I want. My job and family schedule does not allow me to drive long distances to contests or even winch friendly fields.

I want a challenge that is not overly frustrating, but is difficult and will take me several years.

I don't car one way or the other what others think about disposable ARFs or the good old days of wooden sailplanes - it has nothing to do with this.

Come up with a program that meets my needs and I'm in. Otherwise I think I'll publish my own.
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Old Nov 15, 2009, 05:53 PM
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I never could see the need for landing points. If you can hit the same field you took off from, fair enough! If landings are used to thin out the top ten contestants, that is one thing, but we are not competing- are we?I reckon for a self imposed test a one metre circle is as sharp as we need to get to prove we have control over our models. Ken G.
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Old Nov 15, 2009, 09:30 PM
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Wow!

I was away for a few days and really got behind on the discussion. Let's see if I can summarize my responses to a few of the issues.

Build Your Own:
Great idea. However, I agree that introducing it earlier in the program would be better than saving it 'til the end. Secondly, I agree that it should not be restricted to a woody. I've built several woodies, but I also respect the craftsmanship I see with composites. I think allowing a self-build with any technology will do just as much to advance the hobby.

Bring Another Along:
I agree that it would be nice to get this going sooner in the process. However, this may recreate one of the problems that remote pilots have with the LSF. Perhaps the Internet will help us deal with this.


Get some more expert input:

I think it says in Proverbs that in many counselors there is safety. So I agree with the suggestion of getting more feedback from established experts. I'm game to try pretty much anything, but I don't know how feasible the more difficult tasks will be. I'm new to spot landings and multiple long flights in a single day. Although I've been flying casually for almost 30 years it took me the better part of this summer to finish Copper.

Maybe Gordon's idea to redo a single flight rather than the entire task set is a good compromise. I think we want something challenging, but which allows accomplished flyers to continue progressing forward.

Speaking for myself, I'll probably have just several days each summer to attempt a higher level ladder or A-Frame task set. Much more than that and my absense from the family would discourage my sons rather than encourage them into a great hobby. I'm not asking that things be changed to suit me. I'm just stating the current reality. I'll keep trying when I just miss a hard task set, but the current rules may spread even the Bronze level out over several years.


Steve and Joe - Thanks again for your efforts and please keep this going. The open discussion will bring in balancing perspectives and the final program will be better.

Tim
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Last edited by 2motheus; Nov 15, 2009 at 09:41 PM.
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Old Nov 16, 2009, 06:42 AM
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Tim: Check your e-mail for your form. If there is a problem, e-mail me at info@sportsmanssoaringprogram.com or ssp@fourway.com so I can verify I have the correct e-mail.
************************************************** ************************************************** *******
There's been a lot of issues lately on the things we wanted to try. So here's your chance to sit in my shoes for a day so to speak. Design a Gold Level yourself as you would like to see it. Post it in it's entirety not just some random ideas and we'll see what everyone thinks. At the very least it will help us to see what you all think a "level" should look like.
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Old Nov 16, 2009, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by knormang View Post
I never could see the need for landing points. If you can hit the same field you took off from, fair enough! If landings are used to thin out the top ten contestants, that is one thing, but we are not competing- are we?I reckon for a self imposed test a one metre circle is as sharp as we need to get to prove we have control over our models. Ken G.

We are looking to improve ones flying skills, ask any pilot in the full size world and he will tell you it is the hardest part of flying.
PRACTICE, LEARN, GET BETTER!!!
Should a member of the SSP decide/find time/money to compete they will do VERY well having participated in the SSP.

Joe
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Old Nov 16, 2009, 11:14 AM
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I think landings should count, but award the high score for landing within a meter or so. The only way to consitantly nail 6" landings is to dork - electrics and woodies will be at a disadvantage to moldies that are pupose desinged to dork.
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Old Nov 16, 2009, 11:49 AM
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I tend to agree with Ralph on this one. There is no way in I am going to dork land my electric or my woodie so a 6" target seems mighty small. If any of you out there are accomplishing this without dorking please let me know how to do it.

The other aspect I tend to agree with Ralph on is the woodie build. Now I was one of the people who suggested the woodie build, but I specified woodie only because I believed that building with wood was more accessable to the majority of people. Personnaly I would have no issue with a home build composite plane being used for the needed tasks. To me the intent of the task was to build something and possibly come up with a new design or building skill that could be shared with the modeling community. I was not thinking designs from the 70's nor was I thinking inferior plane. There are some modern wood planes that are very competetive, some are even full house ships. Wood does not equal antiquated.

Wayne
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