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Old Nov 04, 2009, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Boone View Post
Contest style task:
intermediate:(Silver) 3-task sets of 3 rounds each, 75% of total possible score
advanced:(Gold) 3-task sets of 4 rounds each, 80% of total possible score
expert:(Platinum) 3-task sets of 5 rounds each, 90% of total possible score

1 point a second, -1 point a second for every minute over time and 1 point per inch for a landing. 100 points maximum for landing. Anything over 100" landing, no score.

So then, Silver Level will have:
3 - task sets consisting of 3 - 7 minute rounds.
420 flight points + 100 landing points = 520 x 3 flights = 1560
75% of total possible score = 1170 points to clear task

3 - task sets consisting of 3 - 10 minute rounds.
600 flight points + 100 landing points = 700 x 3 =2100
75% of total possible score = 1575 points to clear task

Does that all make sense? Everyone agree? If so, I'm writing it in and we can move on to Gold Level. There's only 2 months to have the rest of the program complete. If we can agree on Silver, then there's only two more levels to create and the propgram is done.
I like it.... Good way to improve your flying skills.

Radian
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Old Nov 04, 2009, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Boone View Post
Contest style task:
intermediate:(Silver) 3-task sets of 3 rounds each, 75% of total possible score
advanced:(Gold) 3-task sets of 4 rounds each, 80% of total possible score
expert:(Platinum) 3-task sets of 5 rounds each, 90% of total possible score

1 point a second, -1 point a second for every minute over time and 1 point per inch for a landing. 100 points maximum for landing. Anything over 100" landing, no score.

So then, Silver Level will have:
3 - task sets consisting of 3 - 7 minute rounds.
420 flight points + 100 landing points = 520 x 3 flights = 1560
75% of total possible score = 1170 points to clear task

3 - task sets consisting of 3 - 10 minute rounds.
600 flight points + 100 landing points = 700 x 3 =2100
75% of total possible score = 1575 points to clear task

Does that all make sense? Everyone agree? If so, I'm writing it in and we can move on to Gold Level. There's only 2 months to have the rest of the program complete. If we can agree on Silver, then there's only two more levels to create and the propgram is done.
I like this a lot!!! We are bound to turn out some VERY good pilots that will hold their own should they decide/find time/find funds to join the contest part of soaring.

Joe
SSP VP
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Old Nov 04, 2009, 08:41 AM
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I like it Steve. I say you put it in and wrap up the Silver requirements.

Wayne
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Old Nov 04, 2009, 08:48 AM
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Tom, Gordon,Tony and Jim? What do you guys think?
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Old Nov 04, 2009, 08:02 PM
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As I read this we will fly a total of 18 flight's fot the contest style task's? (9 at 7 minute's and 9 at 10 minute's).

Iregardless, I think we should have an actual vote by the current active member's,just to make it hard for some one to come in later and say it's not what they(WE)need. and to keep it legal as we are a SIG .


My vote as the proposal as written, is YES.


Ken
SSP #6
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Old Nov 04, 2009, 09:21 PM
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Re: Silver requirments

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Boone View Post
Contest style task:
So then, Silver Level will have:
3 - task sets consisting of 3 - 7 minute rounds.
420 flight points + 100 landing points = 520 x 3 flights = 1560
75% of total possible score = 1170 points to clear task

3 - task sets consisting of 3 - 10 minute rounds.
600 flight points + 100 landing points = 700 x 3 =2100
75% of total possible score = 1575 points to clear task
I think this is an admirable outcome for some "contest style" tasks for the SSP. Couldn't have done any better if I tried. No worries to get this task set done AND achievable AND excellent practice for improving contest scores for any pilot.
The problems I have are still:
(a) The Huge total amount of airtime required for the entire Silver Level (40+ hours of successful TD flights) is not helpful in the overall image of the SSP program.
(b) The degree of difficulty proposed for advanced and expert in these tasks is not as high as it could be. (You could make it harder than your proposal.) i.e.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Boone View Post
intermediateSilver) 3-task sets of 3 rounds each, 75% of total possible score
advancedGold) 3-task sets of 4 rounds each, 80% of total possible score
expertPlatinum) 3-task sets of 5 rounds each, 90% of total possible score
I think if you do the sums you'll figure that 85% of perfect for Gold and 95% of perfect for platinum is do-able for this style of task set.

Getting back to my main gripe. - The number of flights/repetitions/air-time required to pass Silver. 40 hours of airtime is more than most peolple who join this hobby will fly in their life. Many struggle just to get past 10 mins and 20 mins in one flight. Few pilots other than seasoned campaigners have ever flown continulosly for an hour. You put dozens of these types of extended duration flights together in one level (especially a low level like Silver) and you will repel most of the people you are trying to attract to the program.
It is simply so large a jump from Bronze to Silver it is going to stop participation for most. With all the future levels proposed there is ample opportunity to make this program long and hard in it's entirety - without making one of the first levels so difficult to pass that the rest of the program is wasted.

In case you haven't already noticed there was a huge flurry of interested participants in this program when it was 1st proposed by the LSF. Almost that entire group of contributors to the RSCE discussions on this subject have gone to ground. Most are not participating here. Why? We need to be "Inclusive" with the design of the program. Include as many participants as possible. All things that will scare them away should be avoided. Therefore the program needs to be perceived as do-able. As the Silver level is written now it makes the program look like it will never be done (without any of us even seeing what the gold or platinum levels bring.) Few people on Gods earth will ever in their lifetime complete Silver Level as it stands. It's just way too much - for no good reason that I have heard.

I sincerely don't want to be a "stick in the mud" here. I personally will attempt the program no matter how it turns out because I want structure in my flying practice. So to answer your question Steve - No I have not given up. (Others have though.) The problem is this extreme level of recorded airtime is neither attractive or sellable as something fun to do. I have not spoken to a single soul outside of this discussion who thinks that the levels as written are a worthwhile program. I don't feel I can sell it to anyone - (and my occupation is a sales trainer.) The small handful of people participating here in this discussion is not representative of the mainstream soaring flyers that wanted a program like this. I am in favour of any sort of vote but it doesn't mean much unless you get enough people to the poll.
Once again - thats my 2 cents worth. Hope it is not falling on deaf ears because I really want to see this program succeed.
Gordon
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Old Nov 05, 2009, 06:22 AM
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Here's my last proposal. A measly 26 hrs of flight time + plus landings. Plus, requirements for contest style to go to 85% and 95% later. What this is going to cause is probably a change the Titanium level if we keep going. Otherwise this program is going to just be fodder for the, "I told you I could do this in a month or two" crowd. My intent wasn't to make a "second best program". In fact, quite the opposite. I wanted it to be the hardest program. I'm trying to do my best to please all that I can. I'm to the point I'm not too happy with it though. At what point should we expect people to actually put in some time and do some flying? When do we stop treating this like it's a beginners program? Maybe that's the problem. Maybe I should have a beginners program as well. Then I could have a beginners program (Ed Anderson had a good proposal for one), a slope program, a sportsman's program and then if you decide to compete you could join the LSF. Now if all of those fell under one roof at some point we would have a true SIG for soaring, not just individual groups. Maybe it's time I talk to the LSF board again. After all look what happened the last time I asked a simple question. The SSP was born. Maybe I should start my own competition program and change our name to the International Soaring Society.
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Old Nov 05, 2009, 06:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Boone View Post
Contest style task:
intermediate:(Silver) 3-task sets of 3 rounds each, 75% of total possible score
advanced:(Gold) 3-task sets of 4 rounds each, 80% of total possible score
expert:(Platinum) 3-task sets of 5 rounds each, 90% of total possible score

1 point a second, -1 point a second for every minute over time and 1 point per inch for a landing. 100 points maximum for landing. Anything over 100" landing, no score.

So then, Silver Level will have:
3 - task sets consisting of 3 - 7 minute rounds.
420 flight points + 100 landing points = 520 x 3 flights = 1560
75% of total possible score = 1170 points to clear task

3 - task sets consisting of 3 - 10 minute rounds.
600 flight points + 100 landing points = 700 x 3 =2100
75% of total possible score = 1575 points to clear task

Does that all make sense? Everyone agree? If so, I'm writing it in and we can move on to Gold Level. There's only 2 months to have the rest of the program complete. If we can agree on Silver, then there's only two more levels to create and the propgram is done.
Steve,
Why did you remove this excellent task set you had proposed. Haven't seen anybody objecting to it - rather everyone so far likes it???? I think the rest of your proposed Version 4 is headed in the right direction though. Something people can see themselves getting through sometime next decade.
By the time you combine the flight time of Bronze as it is, Silver as in Version 4 and Gold and Platinum you could easily have over 100 hours of successful recorded flight time in this program. That will represent many, many times that which is required to complete the current LSF program. I call that harder by multiples than the current LSF program. No need to make it impossible.
Gordon
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Old Nov 05, 2009, 07:42 AM
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I didn't. It's right where it always was. Just only 2 "contests" per set as opposed to 3. You wanted to see less flight time. By cutting one off of each set I dropped a total of 51 minutes just from the contest style task sets.
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Old Nov 05, 2009, 07:52 AM
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Best tip I have every gotten from the guys tha kick my butt all the time is PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE!
Practice is repetition, ask any of the Pro Sports folks. How many laps do the go fast turn left boys put in?? Thousands of laps I am sure, tha is why they are good enoough to make the 43 car field, some are so good they are always at the front of the pack when the flag drops to start and the checkered drops to proclaim the winner.

Joe
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Old Nov 05, 2009, 10:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Boone View Post
Here's my last proposal. A measly 26 hrs of flight time + plus landings. Plus, requirements for contest style to go to 85% and 95% later. What this is going to cause is probably a change the Titanium level if we keep going. Otherwise this program is going to just be fodder for the, "I told you I could do this in a month or two" crowd. My intent wasn't to make a "second best program". In fact, quite the opposite. I wanted it to be the hardest program. I'm trying to do my best to please all that I can. I'm to the point I'm not too happy with it though. At what point should we expect people to actually put in some time and do some flying? When do we stop treating this like it's a beginners program? Maybe that's the problem. Maybe I should have a beginners program as well. Then I could have a beginners program (Ed Anderson had a good proposal for one), a slope program, a sportsman's program and then if you decide to compete you could join the LSF. Now if all of those fell under one roof at some point we would have a true SIG for soaring, not just individual groups. Maybe it's time I talk to the LSF board again. After all look what happened the last time I asked a simple question. The SSP was born. Maybe I should start my own competition program and change our name to the International Soaring Society.
I don't see any "OR" in there. Is one side one part and the other side the or part?
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Old Nov 05, 2009, 11:54 AM
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There is no "or". It's "do it all" from here on out. We have ended the "this or that" format. If slope gets it's own program we will re-do Bronze possibly. Then the only "this or that" format will be in Copper. That remains to be seen.
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Old Nov 05, 2009, 02:46 PM
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I'm with you Steve!

(Just a word or two of encouragement).
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Old Nov 05, 2009, 07:01 PM
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Launch windows?

Have we abandoned the idea of having some control of the launch window? I just looked at version 4 and don't see anything to keep someone from scouting for good air before doing the official flights for the contest tasks.

Tim
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Old Nov 05, 2009, 07:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Boone View Post
I didn't. It's right where it always was. Just only 2 "contests" per set as opposed to 3. You wanted to see less flight time. By cutting one off of each set I dropped a total of 51 minutes just from the contest style task sets.
Why would you want to reduce the time on the precision section of your proposed task set?
In any case I thought I would mention that a couple of facts about air time and degree of difficulty when comparing the LSF program to the SSP may be helpful.

The entire LSF Program from Level 1 through 5 can be accomplished with less than 30 hours of recorded flying time. Yet in over 40 years of concerted effort by thousands of soaring pilots only 125 have found their way to the "holy grail" of Level 5.

You are suggesting that reducing the hours required for the Silver Level to 26 reduces the SSP to to a "beginners" program. That is just not right. Silver as you are now proposing STILL represents nearly as many hours of stick time as the entire LSF program.

In fact Copper at 2 1/4 hours plus Bronze at 8 1/2 hours plus your current proposed Silver at a "measly" 26 hours equals a total of 37 hours. Much more than the entire LSF program and we haven't even tackled Gold or Platinum yet.

Steve - you are going to be forever regarded as a pioneer in this hobby because you are putting in the hard work to MAKE the SSP happen while most just watch and hope somebody else does something good. I just want to see all the effort you are giving result in success of the program and I believe it can if you don't over do it. You don't have to prove anything to anyone in the old LSF by making the SSP 4 times as much work. You and Joe are already doing more for the future of Sport Soarers skill building than anyone else has since the LSF was created 40 years ago. Just don't "kill it" by making the program impossibly difficult for the mainstream to tackle. You and I will go at it regardless of what the levels require, but it takes a lot more than a handful of pilots to make this program a success.

Gordon

PS. The contest style task sets are excellent because they require precision piloting. I like the way the Platinum is proposed also by the way. That is the spirit. Encourage participation.
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