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Old Oct 28, 2009, 07:26 PM
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"Hey all. I tried to join the SSP by using the online form at the SSP website. No matter what I did when I hit 'send' it stated that it failed to send the message.
"

Yup, me to, as I finally decided to give her a try. I am sure it will get figured out.
Any other options like the ancient LSF method: paper envelope and da stamp?

Jared
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Old Oct 28, 2009, 07:43 PM
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Form. Sorry. I thought it would help and has been working quite well. Only had one problem to date. Now two more. Drop me an e-mail at ssp@fourway.net with the info requested and I'll take care of you guys. I'll also let Dennis know. Maybe it has something to do with personal web settings or something silly. What browser are you guys using, just out of curiosity? If we can't figure it out I'll go back to the old way. I was trying to make it easier on me. I just tried it and it worked for me so not sure why it will work for some people and not others. I also received two others yesterday and it was fine. I need to figure out what's going on with it.
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Thanks Jim, now my head hurts.
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Old Oct 28, 2009, 08:02 PM
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Krispy Kremes?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Boone View Post
CONGRATULATIONS TIM GESS! You're the last member in the single digit club. As member #9 it's your job to bring the doughnuts. Do you want your card to read Tim or Timothy? As soon as I know I'll make it up, add a decal and get them on their way. I would also like to thank you for your donation. It's very much apreciated!
Yee-haw! My first goal was to beat Gordon to Copper, but his intense dedication coupled with Florida weather meant that wasn't to be. My second goal was to be in the single digits.

Now that there's a doughnut penalty attached, I'll have to stipulate that I'll bring them if the party is in my neighborhood. I have access to a sod farm 5 miles away, or they might let us in at WMSS or GLASS.

"Tim" is good on the card.

Thank you,
Tim
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Old Oct 28, 2009, 08:15 PM
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Tim, I'll get it out in tomorrow's mail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyestep View Post
"...use the SAP program as it is with the contests changed to "do it yourself" contest tasks. .."
================
An example of this would be: launch at 8 a.m., 9 a.m., 10 a.m. etc., 7 rounds (last launch at 2 p.m.); 10-minute task. Score it just like a 10-minute flight, assuming that the round winner got 10:00. Add landing after normalization. Out of 7700, call a score of 7625 a win, with lower target values from there for lower levels. Others might have different ideas of what it takes to win, but something along those lines should work.

This would be on top of the regular LSF requirements (G&R, etc.) but would replace the contest requirement.

This would be something everyone could understand and many more would buy into. Besides, it resembles the way a lot of us practice when we fly.
tonyestep: I'm sure that makes sense to you but I'm lost. Please try again. Remember I'm not a contest guy.
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Old Oct 28, 2009, 08:48 PM
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Nah, if this system works for most, keep it. Proves to be an individual's system them. I am using Vista64U w/ Explr 8.

Will email later.

Not a problem as all good things take time. Like my LSF at over 25 years and still on level 2, the second time. Doahhhh.

Jared
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Old Oct 28, 2009, 09:09 PM
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"Please try again. Remember I'm not a contest guy."
=================

Sure! See if this is more clear.

A contest works like this (simplifying a little): The competitors are divided into flight groups. Each group has as many members as there are winches. So for example, if the contest has 20 entries and there are 5 winches, there would be 4 groups with 5 flyers in each.

When your group is called, you and your group go to the winches and launch (almost) simultaneously. The task is usually 10 minutes (actually 600 seconds, as we shall see).

The guy who gets the best time gets 1000 points, and others are pro-rated. So let's say the top guy in your group gets 8 minutes and you get 6. Then you'd get (6/8)*1000 = 750 points, plus your landing. If your landing was 75, your round score would be 750 + 75, or 825. You are scored only against the guys who flew with you, i.e. in the same air you got.

Points are deducted for going over the time, so if you get 10:05 and the winner gets 10:00, your flight score is 1000 * (595/600) = 992 because you flew for 600 seconds but had a 5-point deduction, and he flew for exactly 600 seconds.

The number of rounds in a contest is variable (can't be less than 3) but around here usually is 5 or 6, depending on how early the start, how many contestants, and other factors.

(Here is one place to see scores for a contest of this sort:
http://www.modelaircraft.org/files/072409.pdf
This shows the RES event from last year's Nats. Unfortunately, this was cut short to 3 rounds by rain, and the actual scores for the 9 rounds of Unlimited don't seem to be on the AMA site. However, it's fine for the purpose of illustrating the typical range of scores. Note the LSF contest points in the right-hand column; the 39th place guy got 6200 points, more than enough to qualify for Level 4, all in one event! In fact, IF you are able to get to one or two big events like the Nats, the LSF contest requirements are trivially easy until you get to Level 5.)

But to return to the subject at hand: to simulate a contest, you could make a number of flights on a fixed schedule, as if you had been called up in a flight group (in my earlier example, at 8:00 a.m., 9:00 a.m., etc.). Then you could score yourself as if you had been in a group with a guy who made 10:00, add your landing, and total up your points for the day. These could be evaluated against some standard for the first, second, third, etc. levels of accomplishment.

This can be quite a bit harder than a real contest. You don't have other guys in the air marking lift as you do in a contest, and the winner of a real flight group may not get 10:00. So a good score would not be so easy to get.

Anyway, that's how a contest works and how it is scored.
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Old Oct 28, 2009, 09:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Boone View Post
Form. Sorry. I thought it would help and has been working quite well. Only had one problem to date. Now two more. Drop me an e-mail at ssp@fourway.net with the info requested and I'll take care of you guys. I'll also let Dennis know. Maybe it has something to do with personal web settings or something silly. What browser are you guys using, just out of curiosity? If we can't figure it out I'll go back to the old way. I was trying to make it easier on me. I just tried it and it worked for me so not sure why it will work for some people and not others. I also received two others yesterday and it was fine. I need to figure out what's going on with it.
*************************************************
Thanks Jim, now my head hurts.

I'm on Firefox. Will try in IE8. If no dice I'll email ya.

-Sean
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Old Oct 28, 2009, 09:16 PM
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Tim, I'll get it out in tomorrow's mail.



tonyestep: I'm sure that makes sense to you but I'm lost. Please try again. Remember I'm not a contest guy.
Steve, I've never flown in a timed contest either, but I've observed a few rounds. Our shared ignorance may equip me to summarize on Tony's behalf. A perfect score for all 7 rounds would yield exactly 10 minutes of flying time (1000 points each flight) and perfect 100-point landings. The total for the day is 7700 points.

Flying by yourself against this perfect standard, you would give yourself a percentage of the possible flying points, plus the landing points for each flight. As an example, if you flew 590 seconds of the possible 600 in a 10-minute round, your flight points would be 590/600, or 983 out of 1000. If you got a 50-point landing, your total would be 983 + 50, or 1033 of the possible 1100.

I would guess that scoring well on your own is significantly harder than flying with a group, provided the control below.
You would need some way to regulate the launch times - something like having to launch at a predeclared interval such as every 20 minutes +/- one minute. This would prevent someone from scouting for good air then coming down before launching the next "official" SSP flight.

Tim
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Old Oct 28, 2009, 10:21 PM
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I wonder if we realy need to run the points out of 1000? As the majority of flyer's are going to be NON-contest types,just tallying the time's to the second for the required point's is going to be more than ample. Adding the landing part of the task can be add to GOLD and up.


ken
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Old Oct 28, 2009, 11:12 PM
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Contest format

We might want to incorporate the method used in the X5J extreme contests within the electric sailplane thread. This method uses a similar scoring method but does not equalize it as the contestants are all over the world. Check it out here. http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1121902 This would also allow electric launch assist planes to be used.

Wayne
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Old Oct 29, 2009, 02:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Radian View Post
The small picture you refer to is called an Avatar. When in "My RCGroups", click the "Edit Avatar" option on the left side. The follow the instructions from there.

Radian,
www.phflyers.com
Thanks Radian. Hopefully this message will now have the required avtar otherwise back to the drawing board!
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Old Oct 29, 2009, 10:29 AM
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Ok, I think it's finally making sense. I have two schools of thought on the subject. One is that there's no need for a normalizer here. 600 perfect time + 100 point perfect landing = 700 perfect score. Electrics have no advantage the way they're set up within the program so that's not an issue. Second is that even though there's no need for a normalizer it would give continuity between non-contest and contest platforms for those who do both or are interested in going from sportsman to competition or vice versa. Also, launching hourly will get shot down by a lot of people as they'll say they don't have that kind of time. 7 rounds is basically spending all day at the field to get that many rounds in. Every 30 minutes might be better.
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Old Oct 29, 2009, 11:44 AM
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Here's something to consider with respect to contest vs. non-contest tasks. Using reasonable estimates for the time required to do the G&R tasks, the LSF program in its entirety requires only about 19 hours of non-contest air time, of which 8 hours (42%) are in the one legendary bladder-busting slope flight.

To complete all levels, you have to fly in 24 contests. If the contests have a lot of entries, the points come easily until you get to Level 5, where you have to get 3 wins. Up to that point, the main requirement is participation. Suppose you fly in 6-round contests consisting of 10-minute tasks, and make all your times; then you'll put in 24 hours of air time during contests, for a total of 43 flying hours to complete the entire LSF program from beginning to end. Actually it's less, of course, since you certainly don't have to make all your times to advance.

The fact that contest flying outweighs non-contest tasks, and the disproportionate weight given to large events with lots of entries, were among the reasons cited for wanting an alternative program. Many early comments expressed satisfaction with the general outline of the LSF program but wanted to see the contest requirement replaced with one that would serve a similar end but would not require traveling to a distant event or organizing a large group of competitors.

The phrase "serve a similar end" implies that contests call for certain skills: these include making desperate low saves and recoveries from far downwind, precision on-time landings, and finding lift when you're called upon, while the official clock is running and your altitude is dwindling. Irrespective of the scoring or launch spacing, these are key elements of a good achievement program.
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Old Oct 29, 2009, 12:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tonyestep View Post
The phrase "serve a similar end" implies that contests call for certain skills: these include making desperate low saves and recoveries from far downwind, precision on-time landings, and finding lift when you're called upon, while the official clock is running and your altitude is dwindling. Irrespective of the scoring or launch spacing, these are key elements of a good achievement program.
So which of these has the SSP not addressed so far?
As far as how many flight hours are involved in the two programs. Well all I can say is, we're two different programs. The SSP plans to be a high flight time program with as many aspects of soaring involved as we can manage to make work. If we're not the same as the LSF, so what? The LSF has a good program. It doesn't mean they have the perfect program for everyone. It also doesn't mean that they have the only formula that will work. What it does mean is there are some things they do that may also work here and others that may not.
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TITANIUM LEVEL: I have posted the preliminary requirements for Titanium Level. I was so tired of hearing about how bad it would have to be I decided to put an end to it so we could move on. It's pretty much as I always planned it to be. Of course it's not written in stone yet but as far as I'm concerned, it's close.
WEB SITE: I have added some links to the web site for application form issues, contact info for Joe and I, product info inquiries and gallery submission info.
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Old Oct 29, 2009, 02:00 PM
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If we go with +1 point a second to task time,-1 point every second over and 100" landing points possible. We can change the task times and/or the number of rounds to change the difficulty. So give me some starting numbers. Task time, rounds, point total. How do you plan on working it if you don't make your point total? Throw out all of the flights and start over?
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