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Old Apr 17, 2009, 12:07 PM
Proud member of LISF and ESL
LI, New York, USA
Joined Mar 2003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Windependence
It was not my origional idea, I believe Steve thought up the phrase. This is all I have been advocating since the beginning of this entire discussion. I have chimmed in of many of the other threads and have tried to make this point clear to others. Just a quick question for you Ed. I have seen you are for keeping e-powered launches seperate from the standard contests for now. Just out of curiosity, if I were ever to get out to your area would you, personally, have an issue with me mirroring your winch or hi-start launch with my e-power launched plane and competing with you? I would use the motor only to mirror your launch and then off with the motor.

This is all I have ever been advocating for but somehow all of these discussions on the other threads get cought up in all of the "unfair advantages" I have but cannot utilize. My other option is to use my traditional 2M Riser to compete with the Pikes and Supras but that contest seems a little lopsided to me. I don't hear the cries of inequity there.

I have said it before and I will say it again, SSP, LSF and any other group should be bending over backwards to be as inclusive as possible to all soaring pilots regardless of what they fly. Figure out a handicap for the different catagories of planes and cut them all loose. The absolute worst thing, IMHO, that can happen to a new pilot is to be told that they cannot fly or compete with their plane. Trust me I know, I have been there. I still bump into that when trying to fly my Riser off a hi-start at the local flying fields. There is no soaring field here so the gassers mostly tell me to go somewhere else.

I applaude Steve for working from the start on including e-powered gliders into his program. Once the details have been worked out I believe he should post it on the electric glider forum. I think he will be swampped with people looking for a set of new challenges.

Wayne
My position on mixed launches within a given contest is pretty flexible. For club contests, if a pilot would prefer a hi-start to the winch, that's fine wiht me. If he wants to toss his DLG agains my winched plane, that's OK too. Those are knowns.

The issue with e-launch today is that there is limited experience and exposure to this idea of limited launch height. I have never seen it in action and am not familiar with its workings and limitations.

But let us assume for a moment that you have such a device and we were all comfortable that it works as advertised. Then I say, let's play! I'll winch and you e-launch and let's go look for themals.

But I don't expect that to occur in general competition for many many years to come. What we do one on one or in a club contest is a lot different than what is done at the NATS or in regional events.


For now I am in favor of e-launch in the sportsman program. There is no head to head competition based on launch type. You are an individual working against a performance standard. If your launch type gives you no special advantage, then I say that's fine with me.


If this height limited launch approach that is proposed by LSF is adopted, I think it will change the face of e-soaring competition in the US, for the better. It will take the current watts per pound race and bring it to a screaming hault which will make the whole sport much more affordale and more accessible to many.

But that is a work in progress and I would not want to thrust it into the current SAP program until it is well proven and widely accepted. There is plenty of time for that in the future. That could be 2 years, or 5 years or never. But I don't think it should be now.

Just my view.... today.
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Old Apr 21, 2009, 09:32 AM
founder of the SSP
Steve Boone's Avatar
Walkerton, Indiana
Joined Jul 2004
1,554 Posts
I've made a couple of chances to the SOP for electrics. You now have 60 seconds of power on time or 700' and a quick "blip" to re-engage the brake is allowed. Changes to the task requirements sheet have been made to reflect this.
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I went out with a couple of the Red Hen Fliers last Saturday and we had a great time. I had several flights and landings that would have counted towards the program. Being the first time out and as I was tuning on the new Ava I never started the program tasks. I really should have but I just wanted to work on my plane and gear and visit with friends as it was my first real outing of the year. Next time I plan to get out my sheet and kick some butt! So no progress to report here. At one time we did better than 30 minutes in overcast conditions. The new retiever and winch both had minor issues I have to deal with before next time out.
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Old Apr 22, 2009, 01:43 PM
SSP#1
sjgoulet's Avatar
United States, MO, Louisburg
Joined Apr 2007
519 Posts
Steve, i think this was discussed somewhere when we complete each level what do i need to do with the completed form? As to date i only have the 30 min td flight and landing to finish, im hoping to get out this afternoon and maybe just maybe get this last one finished.

Steve
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Old Apr 22, 2009, 08:17 PM
Proud member of LISF and ESL
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Joined Mar 2003
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There was an adderss on my form telling me where to mail it. Include $2.
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Old Apr 23, 2009, 06:46 AM
founder of the SSP
Steve Boone's Avatar
Walkerton, Indiana
Joined Jul 2004
1,554 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by aeajr
There was an address on my form telling me where to mail it. Include $2.
Wrong Ed. You're thinking of the LSF. They have nothing to do with our program.
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For now you may send them to me along with your contact information. Please include your R/C Groups handle. A donation to help out with cost is up to you. Please include a SASE (self addressed stamped envelope) with your first form.

Steve Boone
8133 S State Rd 104
Walkerton, IN 46574
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sjgoulet: Congratulations on your progress so far.
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I better get it in gear if I plan to have the first membership number in my program.
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Old Apr 23, 2009, 10:23 AM
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Ralph Weaver's Avatar
Indianapolis, IN USA
Joined Nov 2000
2,305 Posts
A couple of suggestions based on experience using an altitude cut off device and listening to those across the pond that have been doing this for a while.

Pick a fixed height for all contests or programs. Other organizations use 200m. This will allow for inexpensive devices that don't require a set up program and contest organizers will not have to check the settings - it's always 200m.

Next, set the motor time to 30 seconds. Much under and you start needing some higher powered systems. Any longer and you give a huge advantage to electrics compared to standard sailplanes because they can range so much farther under power. If you can't get to 200m in 30 seconds, then you need a different power system. It's like competing with a 50' high start - get some decent equipment.

I personally think the device should not allow any restarts, but that's a tough call.

BTW - you won't get glitches with the altitude limiter because it cuts off signals to the ESC. If the motor comes on you have some other issue - potentially a safety issue.

This would result in a $30? device that always cuts off at 200m or 30 seconds. Contests would be easy because you only have to have one of the approved devices in your plane. The larger organizers like LSF or AMA could hand them out at the event. If you want your own personal logging device to practice with - fine.
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Old Apr 23, 2009, 12:20 PM
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Coopersburg, PA
Joined Sep 2001
1,974 Posts
Stay tuned Ralph...

Randy
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Old Apr 23, 2009, 03:34 PM
It Could Be Worse
avondale, az
Joined Dec 2007
67 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph Weaver
... This would result in a $30? device that always cuts off at 200m or 30 seconds. Contests would be easy because you only have to have one of the approved devices in your plane. The larger organizers like LSF or AMA could hand them out at the event. If you want your own personal logging device to practice with - fine.
Sounds like the perfect answer to me.
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Old Apr 23, 2009, 06:45 PM
Proud member of LISF and ESL
LI, New York, USA
Joined Mar 2003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Boone
Wrong Ed. You're thinking of the LSF. They have nothing to do with our program.
OOPS, Sorry Steve. Of course you are right.
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Old Apr 23, 2009, 08:08 PM
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Indianapolis, IN USA
Joined Nov 2000
2,305 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by rcbrust
Stay tuned Ralph...

Randy
I beat you to it... I connected a little AVR board to the RAM and I read the sync communications to get the atlitude to do the cut off. Then I decided to just start selling the most popular European device: http://www.magtechinc.net/RCAltimeter.htm

I probably still use the RAM the most.
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Old Apr 24, 2009, 11:23 AM
turn, turn, turn.
Athol, Massachusetts
Joined Oct 2005
10,349 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralph Weaver
I personally think the device should not allow any restarts, but that's a tough call.
After talking to a few e-sailplane pilots, I have changed my mind.

True, there is a psychological advantage to ranging far downwind with an electric motor which allows re-starts.
Still though, how many pilots would be willing to have their e-sailplane motor disabled after the one run?

I say zero....or close to it.

So, with that in mind, I am willing to acknowledge the far-ranging advantage.... and with no viable alternative, I am able to live with it.
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Old Apr 24, 2009, 12:25 PM
Proud member of LISF and ESL
LI, New York, USA
Joined Mar 2003
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Better to take a zero for the flight than lose it in the trees.
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Last edited by aeajr; Apr 24, 2009 at 02:35 PM.
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Old Apr 24, 2009, 01:21 PM
You looking at me?
Ed Franz's Avatar
USA, KY, Burlington
Joined Sep 2001
1,506 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Sharp
After talking to a few e-sailplane pilots, I have changed my mind.

True, there is a psychological advantage to ranging far downwind with an electric motor which allows re-starts.
Still though, how many pilots would be willing to have their e-sailplane motor disabled after the one run?

I say zero....or close to it.

So, with that in mind, I am willing to acknowledge the far-ranging advantage.... and with no viable alternative, I am able to live with it.

Would not bother me to have the motor disabled. I am not alone, more than a few have landed way down wind at E-Nats. They never turned back on just to make it back. Maybe I always believe I can make it back. Not that I always do....

Ed
www.commonsenserc.com
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Old Apr 28, 2009, 01:42 PM
SSP#1
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United States, MO, Louisburg
Joined Apr 2007
519 Posts
Have'nt been able to get out to attempt to finish the copper level yet, wind wind and more wind oh and rain and lots of it. The wind finally died down today, but more rain comming in, at this rate it may take another month to get this finished. After seeing the Bronze level tasks its gonna get alot harder from here on out. Steve after looking at the Bronze level im only asking cause im new at this, whats 2 10 min. precision flights consist of and whats the ladder flight consist of ?. I guess i shouldnt be to worried about those just yet but was just curious.

Steve
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Old Apr 29, 2009, 01:43 PM
founder of the SSP
Steve Boone's Avatar
Walkerton, Indiana
Joined Jul 2004
1,554 Posts
Sorry guys. I had to take a bit of time away to deal with life. There's been no flying here. Wind & rain are just destroying the start of the soaring season. Now I wish I would have used the one day we've had to get started instead of just for fun soaring. I threw away a lot of qualifying flights and landings. Oh well, hind-sight is 20/20. So as the founder of the program I'm at the back of the line in completing anything. I swear, I'll catch up!
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New news: The SSP has a E-mail address now. It's ssp@fourway.net. So you can direct your e-mails there.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sjgoulet
whats 2 10 min. precision flights consist of and whats the ladder flight consist of ?
Not to be rude and not answer here directly. (There's just too much to explain it all) All of the info you need to complete the first three levels is in the Task Requirement Form on page one. The first three levels are complete and locked in until 4/1/2010 when the program will be evaluated. At that point it will be decided if there are to be any changes made to those levels. Please make sure you have the "final" version of those levels. Give it a read and if you still have any questions feel free to ask me here or e-mail me at the ssp address. If you see any typos or things that just don't make sense let me know so I can fix them please. I've tried to catch them all but something may have slipped through.
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I'm trying to decide what to do after "Gold". (TEASER: I have been considering dropping the last two levels and doing specialty tasks instead possibly.) I think "Gold" will have the last "this or that" style task in it. It will also be the end of the slope stuff as far as I can see at this point. In all honesty the program is starting to look too much like some of the others and I want to take it in a more unique kind of direction after "Gold". I'm still brain-storming at this point so don't panic yet. I may stick this format out. I plan to sit down and re-read this thread, all of my e-mails and my personal notes before I go any further. I should have a bit of time before I have to make final decisions.
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Last edited by Steve Boone; Jun 18, 2009 at 07:52 AM.
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