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Old Dec 19, 2009, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by NipponDave View Post
I'm also going to think about making a shaft press tool for everybody, that should work with almost any outrunner, and supports the bell properly...

Will do it if we can produce at reasonable cost...

D
Dave,

A friend has a need to replace a shaft in a G2220 motor. Is the press tool in development? If not what do you suggest he do to replace the shaft and "support the bell properly"?

George
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Old Dec 20, 2009, 02:47 PM
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For a number of reasons. First, the batts used in the tests we're older types. Using new G3 will result in current draws 10%~25% higher.

Second, you don't want to push motors to their "max" current and watts, unless you have a good reason to do so, any more than you drive your car as fast as it will go all the time... Instead, you want the motor to run in the most efficient band in which it provides the peak power NEEDED to achioeve the model performance you want.

Due to differences in battery performance, ESC settings, ambient temperature, cooling, etc -and individual pilots' desries for performance - it is virtually impossible to give an "ideal" prop recommendation.

Instead, everyone needs to have tools like the EmeterII (or other logger), with the ability to measure motor current, battery volts, and temps.

As for motor temp, again it is not so simple. Since you can't know what the "spot" peak temps are deep inside the motor, all you can do is leave a wide margin for error. In my opinion, the Zs series (and Hs, Gs) can be pushed to 110C with perfect safety, when measured from the outside front of the motor (the part that mounts to the model, not the bell). It is quite rare to find a model setup that results in temps higher than that, btw, assuming decent cooling airflow. We have run quite a few motors up to 145C in testing without damage, but there is never an advantage in pushing the motors to that point in the "real" world, imo.

David



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Originally Posted by sirrocco View Post
Dave,

Just interested in why you would suggest 17*8 (16*10) as your upper limit on a Zs4025-14. By the data sheets these props are roughly 1300W and 60A on 6S where as the specs on the motor are max 90A 2100W..
As in “Do not exceed… degrees!” The only thing I seem to have read is the motors have 200c magnets but what does this mean in the real world??

Thanks

jt
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Old Dec 20, 2009, 02:50 PM
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He can just use a standard press. The tool I'd like to make (but have only started on) is only a cheaper replacement for a regular press...

He needs to be sure the rear of the bell which carries the shaft is heated well (small butane torch works), set screws removed, before pushing the old shaft out.

David

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Originally Posted by GeorgeC View Post
Dave,

A friend has a need to replace a shaft in a G2220 motor. Is the press tool in development? If not what do you suggest he do to replace the shaft and "support the bell properly"?

George
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Old Dec 20, 2009, 06:36 PM
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Dave, as many have said before, it's awesome being able to tap into your knowledge, it also goes a long way as to way we keep purchasing your products - thank you!

Parting question, would Hyperion ever entertain the concept of a producing a competitive motor (power/weight) for F3A or is the market too small? I am running a Z5035 in a Wind110 and it's more than competitive but a move back to full 2M wouldn't allow me to continue to run Hyperion due to weight, which suxs as I'm totally Hyperion converted.


Quote:

"Second, you don't want to push motors to their "max" current and watts, unless you have a good reason to do so, any more than you drive your car as fast as it will go all the time... Instead, you want the motor to run in the most efficient band in which it provides the peak power NEEDED to achioeve the model performance you want.


As for motor temp, again it is not so simple. Since you can't know what the "spot" peak temps are deep inside the motor, all you can do is leave a wide margin for error. In my opinion, the Zs series (and Hs, Gs) can be pushed to 110C with perfect safety, when measured from the outside front of the motor (the part that mounts to the model, not the bell). It is quite rare to find a model setup that results in temps higher than that, btw, assuming decent cooling airflow. We have run quite a few motors up to 145C in testing without damage, but there is never an advantage in pushing the motors to that point in the "real" world, imo."

David[/QUOTE]
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Old Dec 20, 2009, 08:35 PM
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Originally Posted by NipponDave View Post
For a number of reasons. First, the batts used in the tests we're older types. Using new G3 will result in current draws 10%~25% higher.

Second, you don't want to push motors to their "max" current and watts, unless you have a good reason to do so, any more than you drive your car as fast as it will go all the time... Instead, you want the motor to run in the most efficient band in which it provides the peak power NEEDED to achioeve the model performance you want.

Due to differences in battery performance, ESC settings, ambient temperature, cooling, etc -and individual pilots' desries for performance - it is virtually impossible to give an "ideal" prop recommendation.

Instead, everyone needs to have tools like the EmeterII (or other logger), with the ability to measure motor current, battery volts, and temps.

As for motor temp, again it is not so simple. Since you can't know what the "spot" peak temps are deep inside the motor, all you can do is leave a wide margin for error. In my opinion, the Zs series (and Hs, Gs) can be pushed to 110C with perfect safety, when measured from the outside front of the motor (the part that mounts to the model, not the bell). It is quite rare to find a model setup that results in temps higher than that, btw, assuming decent cooling airflow. We have run quite a few motors up to 145C in testing without damage, but there is never an advantage in pushing the motors to that point in the "real" world, imo.

David
David,

I have several of the new Hyperion motors in my models and I push them to (and sometimes over) the rated max watts/amps. I have never measured a temperature above 110C on these motors. I'm certainly not disputing the ratings given by Hyperion on these motors. I run mine like I do because (like the G3 batteries) I wanted to see for myself what these motors would handle under what most would consider extreme conditions. One particular model has a Zs3025-08 in it. It's a 50oz. model (Pitts model 12 15e) and I get 1300w and close to 90a on a 4S @ WOT. I've measure motor temps (not the bell) as high as 164F but I believe that's the highest temp I've ever recorded on this model. That's over 400watts per pound. Needless to say the performance on this model is simply amazing in my book.

I have a Zs3020-08 on a 32oz. model that produces 900w and 80a on a 3S. Another "extreme" power setup with over 400w per pound. It's overkill I know but, it is so much fun.

These two models give "unlimited vertical" a new meaning in my book. Both of these setups weigh less than a ounce more than the manufacturer recommended motors. Granted I'm not running 1300 and 900w on these models continuously but, I'm certainly giving them one hell of a workout.

Here's my question:

What in particular makes these motors as good as they are? I know they have great materials/components in them but, is it as simple as that? I've tested other motors with ratings that meet or exceed the Hyperion Zs ratings in these models that resulted in fried motors. Literally fried. These Hyperion Zs motors take the abuse in stride and just keep going. After literally hundreds of flights they are no measurable ill effects on either of these models.

I understand that both the examples above are overkill but, that's how I like to fly them. My personal choice is to have the airframe the limiting factor, not the power system. I'm just happy that the Zs motors allow me to do it without replacing motors
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Old Dec 20, 2009, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Buzzkill2 View Post
David,


Here's my question:

What in particular makes these motors as good as they are? I know they have great materials/components in them but, is it as simple as that?
Other than what you have said "the best (value for money) components, I'd expect he'd include "an excellent design and manufacturing process to assemble them".

George
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Old Dec 21, 2009, 04:47 PM View Post
c/f
A moderator felt this post violated the following rule: Trolling (Obnoxious behavior). It is temporarily hidden while c/f edits it. Show it to me anyway.
Old Dec 21, 2009, 05:06 PM
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Me too, but much to my dismay Hyperion has now jumped the Hacker ship onto an Asian container ship to produce a Hyperion/Scorpion mutation of Hyperion motors. I notice on www.hyperion-eu.com that it's almost across all sizes now.

Proceed with caution as to further Hyperion motors, to insure its of the old style you and I are familiar with and has a 3 bolts prop shaft adapter. The new halfbreeds no longer use prop shafts and are only collet mount style prop shafts

Great work Nippon Dave..........

Really have to wonder about this guy, as he clearly knows not what he talks about. My new ZS Hyperion’s (scorpion Built) do have provision to attach a backmount propshaft adapter. I doubt I will ever buy a Hacker motor if this is indicative of their marketing strategy. Also from what has already been published, the new ZS series are more efficient that the old hacker built Hyperion’s.
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Old Dec 21, 2009, 05:21 PM
c/f
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Then you DONT have a Scorpion version, you have the Hacker version,,,,,, I dont buy Hacker either, even though I went to dinner with the company CEO in Munich DE.........

Hyperion got real funny and elusive with the numbering so I am only trying to clear the air......Buy the prop shaft adapter ones while you can.........

I too bought many ZS motors:
http://www.allerc.com/product_info.p...oducts_id=4590

last year with the new 200C magnets and wire and there not Scorpions, You see your falling prey to this deceptive campaign to cut costs moving to asia manufacturing.........
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Old Dec 21, 2009, 05:27 PM
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Then you DONT have a Scorpion version, you have the Hacker version.....
They got reall funny and elusive with the numbering so I am only trying to clear the air......
You are absolutely 100% Incorrect all new ZS 30 series (Scorpion Manufacture) have threaded 3M holes for attaching backmount prop adapters.

Get your facts write and stop trolling!
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Old Dec 21, 2009, 05:34 PM
c/f
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No, they dont and get your facts straight and ask from the horses mouth, any 3 bolt prop adapter versioned Hyperions are stock still produced in Germany is my best guess.......

Nippon Dave???? Clear the air........

Trolls are for bridges Moonshines for Nashbro
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Old Dec 21, 2009, 05:50 PM
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Originally Posted by c/f View Post
No, they dont and get your facts straight and ask from the horses mouth, any 3 bolt prop adapter versioned Hyperions are stock still produced in Germany is my best guess.......

Nippon Dave???? Clear the air........

Trolls are for bridges Moonshines for Nashbro
I have 6 of the ZS30 motors and they all have the option for 3 bolt prop adapter. You can even see the holes for it in the motor you linked to. (And I have the bolt on adapter on all of them.)

The ZS40, however, only have the option for a collet adapter. I have 4 of those as well, so I know.

People who have no idea of what they are talking about should either keep their mouth shut or talk to them selves...
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Old Dec 21, 2009, 05:58 PM
c/f
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You still fall prey to this gimmick, Hyperion started with the new 200C magnets and wire in the German producing facility and changed the numeration to HP Zs, I bought them and push them hard and was Pro Hyperion......

BUT......

The've since moved some/most production to Asia and kept the numeration close but have elliminated the 3 bolt option, which to me is a tell tale sign it was not produced in Germany but Asia same factory producing Scorpions.




Lets let Nippon Dave clear the air..........
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Old Dec 21, 2009, 06:10 PM
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I'll shed some light on this. The Zs(3X) motors do in fact have the 3-bolt configuration for the back mount adapters.

The motors your looking at that do not are the NEW Hs motors (heli,pylon,edf etc.) which do not have the three holes for the back mount prop adapters.

I own several of both types and both are completely spectacular motors. Hyperion didn't migrate DOWN to Scorpion specs, Scorpion migrated UP to Hyperion specs. Both Hyperion and Scorpion sell the new motors that are much better than the previous generation of great motors. So, the new Zs and Hs motors are nothing less than awesome motors. Example: those (like me) that have owned Scorpion heli motors used to have to oil bearings every few flights and they would still cook the bearings. The new motors have much better bearings (although you should still oil about every 40-50 flights for GP)

IMO the new Zs-Hs motors are both better than previous Hacker and Scorpion models.

My $.02 but I know that there is a difference between the Zs and Hs models and the Zs(3X) do in fact have the 3-bolt holes for back mount adapters.

I think the OP should get some facts straight before he/she starts throwing around Asian factory "game" conspiracy theories. Further more, I'd challenge you to find motors that can come close to the quality/performance of the new Hyperion Zs/Hs motors anywhere (excluding Scorpion of course) near the current pricing.
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Old Dec 21, 2009, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by c/f View Post
Lets let Nippon Dave clear the air..........
Why don't you? Either you have a ZS20 or ZS40 wich never had the bolt on option, or you can tell us what ZS30 motor you have without it that has led you to this conspiracy theory?

Just to let you know, you need one of these sets if you want the backmount option.

http://www.hyperion-eu.com/products/...ZS30-BKADAP-6L
http://www.hyperion-eu.com/products/...S30-BKADAP-8XL
http://www.hyperion-eu.com/products/...HP-S30-BKMNT-L
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