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Old Aug 09, 2009, 12:23 AM
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Boise, ID
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Hmmm.

I think the problem is, nobody has bothered to actually look at what the Apprentice has for prop adaptors, motor mounts, etc. As a result, I get erroneous advice about motors and props, etc., that "should" work.

Apprentice has a stock motor with a 5mm shaft. Back-mounted. Has a prop adaptor that does NOT have a collet on it, and measures about 9 mm diam. where the stock 11 x 8 prop slides on. The hole on the stock prop measures about 9mm in diam. It's held on with a black plastic cap, washer and bolt. Then, black plastic spinner snaps on the black plastic cap. No collet.

Maybe it's a weird set-up; I don't know. I know it's simple, but this is my first plane.

But I just bought ~$135 worth of motor and ESC that "should" work for my Apprentice, but they don't, and today I bought an APC 11 x 8E prop, that should work better, but doesn't fit, (unless I go find a drill press and drill out the hole precisely), and now I'm advised to buy a 10x7 or 11x7 prop, and they will be great.

Funny, when I bought the motor and ESC, Bob didn't tell me I'd then have to buy the back mount kit, and different props, too.

And, I didn't assume anything about the props, but I confess that I don't understand why one 11x8 prop can be dramatically different from another 11x8 prop, in performance.
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Old Aug 09, 2009, 01:34 AM
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Phoenix,Arizona, United States
Joined Jun 2002
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Its a wierd setup, as far as the "normal" is concearned. Unless you use the stock motor, your going to have to modify the motor and prop mounting, Just like props, motors are all different weights and sizes with different mounting methods and shaft diameters~get used to it, only gets easier to figure out after you get some practice at it.

Your talking about the apprentice here right? http://www.e-fliterc.com/Products/Re...ProdID=EFL2725 which comes with a 15 size motor and 30 amp ESC, but your replacing a power 25 and 40 amp ESC? the 3020-10 is alot of motor for a 15 size trainer.

Stock it uses a cheesy plastic backmount adapter/spacer, and a set screw prop adapter, which is fine for the low power motor it comes with stock, but are not up to par with a quality motor.

if you take 5 different brands of the same size prop, you will get 5 different amp draws, and various levels of performance. A prop is a rotating wing, lets say that you have a 50" span trainer, a fairly thick draggy airfoil, and compare it to a 50" span pylon racers wing, very thin and slick airfoil. Even though they are both the same size, they perform drastically different. Same with props, "stock" props are generally of lower quality than engineered props like Xoar and APC, alot of research and design has gone into APC props~as shown by how "normal" it is to see lots of people running them, and the fact that almost ALL prop charts given by motor manufactures use APC props.

I assumed you picked a Hyperion motor that was a direct replacement for the stock motor, due to you planning on using the stock prop~now I see this isnt the case, and I apologize for recommending the 11x8, the 10x7 would be a better place to start on the 3020-10, especially if your using the stock lipos.
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Old Aug 09, 2009, 03:39 PM
I like the violent stuff!
Costa Mesa, CA
Joined Oct 2004
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The reported soft shaft is soft. The invitory number even has the suffix "sft" in it which I assume means soft. I'm almost sixty and I bent the 2213 shaft by hand. So I took the shaft out of my old Scorpion and ground a flat on it and put it in my new 2213 Zs. It's a shame to build a really nice motor and put a crappy soft shaft in it to save twelve cents! As with most new designs, it takes a while to get the bugs out, I hope the engineers win out over the accountants!
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Old Aug 09, 2009, 05:01 PM
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Boise, ID
Joined Dec 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylwad
. . . comes with a 15 size motor and 30 amp ESC, but your replacing a power 25 and 40 amp ESC? the 3020-10 is alot of motor for a 15 size trainer.

Stock it uses a cheesy plastic backmount adapter/spacer, and a set screw prop adapter, which is fine for the low power motor it comes with stock, but are not up to par with a quality motor.

I assumed you picked a Hyperion motor that was a direct replacement for the stock motor, due to you planning on using the stock prop~now I see this isnt the case, and I apologize for recommending the 11x8, the 10x7 would be a better place to start on the 3020-10, especially if your using the stock lipos.
Thanks Dylwad, and no apology is necessary. I'm a little frustrated at the moment, but no doubt I'll use that prop someday.

And thanks for the tutorial; I didn't know all that. Yes, it's the E-flite Apprentice. And you're absolutely right about the plastic backmount adaptor/spacer, and set screw prop adaptor. It's OK for a buddy-box trainer, with an instructor, which is exactly what Horizon says it is. Not quite as OK for a solo new flyer. As many have advised, the Super Cub probably would have been better for me, and cheaper to fix. But this plane is big, I have a big empty park in which to fly it, and I enjoy flying it.

Yep, I've upgraded to the E-flite Power 25, (with E-flite 40 amp ESC) but not real happy with it. Thinking of sending it back to Horizon to check it out; might have bought a bad one, or maybe the bearings are whacked. It's noisy and seems weak; no better than the stock motor.

And yes, I bought the Hyperion 3020-10 (and the Atlas 60A LBEC Brushless ESC) to upgrade further. Yes, I did want to use the Hyperion motor with the Apprentice's stock motor mount, prop adaptor, prop, and spinner. But, now, I wonder whether the stock motor mount will handle this motor. Should I be concerned with that?

The Apprentice is a plane with 58" wingspan, weighs 40 - 45 oz with battery, and the two batteries I fly with are the stock E-flite 3S 11.1V 3200mAh 15C, (give me about 25 min flying time, using about 80% of the battery), and also the Thunder Power Pro Lite V2 3S 11.1V 4350mAh 20C continuous/40C burst. This batt gives me about 30 min flying time, using up about 80% of the battery). So, previously I calculated I was using an average of 8.7 Amps with the easy way I fly.

So, is my next step buying the backmount kit, and a 10 x 7 or 11 x 7 APC prop? Won't burn up anything, will I? (I don't yet have a wattmeter, but I bought the cheap Harbor Freight DMM, and male and female EC3 connectors, with 13g wires, to build the wattmeter as suggested over on the "batteries and Chargers forum. But I won't have that for a while, (assuming I can figure out that shunt soldering.)

Thanks again Dwlwad, and also Dave. Any advice would be appreciated.

Tom
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Old Aug 09, 2009, 07:38 PM
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Joined Mar 2001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wingin' Wayne
The reported soft shaft is soft. The invitory number even has the suffix "sft" in it which I assume means soft. I'm almost sixty and I bent the 2213 shaft by hand. So I took the shaft out of my old Scorpion and ground a flat on it and put it in my new 2213 Zs. It's a shame to build a really nice motor and put a crappy soft shaft in it to save twelve cents! As with most new designs, it takes a while to get the bugs out, I hope the engineers win out over the accountants!
I wrote the part number. SFT means "shaft".

I assure you that the shaft was not spec'd to save money. Furthermore, you must have really strong hands, because I just tried to bend a Zs22 shaft and couldn't come close... (but I did put a nice divot in my thumb, ouch!)

Finally, Georges (Scorpion CEO) and I are not only great friends, we have been partners in development of a series of ENTIRELY new products that have just launched recently (Hyperion Zs, Scorpion S2 motors, Hyperion ATLAS and Scorpion Commander II ESC), and some that are just now coming out (Hyperion Hs high speed outrunners).

We use the same materials. It would cost a lot more to do otherwise...

David
Hyperion HK
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Old Aug 09, 2009, 07:54 PM
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I'm sorry for the frustration. Bob at All-E RC is a super guy, and always tries his best. But it is really very difficult to know all the details of a model kit if it's not one you sell. I looked at the horizon site and Apprentice manual. As far as I can see, Bob should have noted that you'd need the backmount adapter. He should also have sent you this link, which shows all the measurements and explains the mounting options.

Please do check the dimensions listed against your stock motor to see if the Zs3020 will fit. If so, I would say that you'll want a 10x5 prop to start. That will still probably be about 50%+ more peak current than you had before, but should stay together on your stock mount. Then you'll have the option of a lot more power on tap when you want it, or throttle back for long crusing flights. The much higher efficiency of the Zs will give a surplus you can split between more power, or even longer flights...

If you are open for advice, I think it a bit unrealistic to expect that you could use a stock prop, especially if it uses a - pardon me - strange 5mm hole design. APC E props are widely regarded as being some of the most efficient available, fit standard M6 prop shafts, and will make the most of your motor and battery.

Please feel free to ask more advice as you go. We're here to help...

David

Fyi, you can find info on all the latest Hyperion products here.

PS: A prop reamer is a nice tool to have, and will allow you to use that original prop on a different model or motor later if you want to.


Quote:
Originally Posted by tlr-boise
Thanks Dylwad, and no apology is necessary. I'm a little frustrated at the moment, but no doubt I'll use that prop someday.

And thanks for the tutorial; I didn't know all that. Yes, it's the E-flite Apprentice. And you're absolutely right about the plastic backmount adaptor/spacer, and set screw prop adaptor. It's OK for a buddy-box trainer, with an instructor, which is exactly what Horizon says it is. Not quite as OK for a solo new flyer. As many have advised, the Super Cub probably would have been better for me, and cheaper to fix. But this plane is big, I have a big empty park in which to fly it, and I enjoy flying it.

Yep, I've upgraded to the E-flite Power 25, (with E-flite 40 amp ESC) but not real happy with it. Thinking of sending it back to Horizon to check it out; might have bought a bad one, or maybe the bearings are whacked. It's noisy and seems weak; no better than the stock motor.

And yes, I bought the Hyperion 3020-10 (and the Atlas 60A LBEC Brushless ESC) to upgrade further. Yes, I did want to use the Hyperion motor with the Apprentice's stock motor mount, prop adaptor, prop, and spinner. But, now, I wonder whether the stock motor mount will handle this motor. Should I be concerned with that?

The Apprentice is a plane with 58" wingspan, weighs 40 - 45 oz with battery, and the two batteries I fly with are the stock E-flite 3S 11.1V 3200mAh 15C, (give me about 25 min flying time, using about 80% of the battery), and also the Thunder Power Pro Lite V2 3S 11.1V 4350mAh 20C continuous/40C burst. This batt gives me about 30 min flying time, using up about 80% of the battery). So, previously I calculated I was using an average of 8.7 Amps with the easy way I fly.

So, is my next step buying the backmount kit, and a 10 x 7 or 11 x 7 APC prop? Won't burn up anything, will I? (I don't yet have a wattmeter, but I bought the cheap Harbor Freight DMM, and male and female EC3 connectors, with 13g wires, to build the wattmeter as suggested over on the "batteries and Chargers forum. But I won't have that for a while, (assuming I can figure out that shunt soldering.)

Thanks again Dwlwad, and also Dave. Any advice would be appreciated.

Tom
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Old Aug 09, 2009, 08:46 PM
c/f
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WHAT ### HS HIGH SPEED???? Shut up dude I just got the Zs in April to go fast at SEFF, I need to beta test that Hs in my Outlaw,

For what its worth APC inserts for their props are 9.5mm OD and Hyperion sells aluminum ones that are 9.5 OD and variuos ID to fit props, VERY top notch product line. Personal power to weight I cant find any motors to come close to the new Hyperion Z lineup..........

Mcmaster carr sells a 9.5 reamer...............02
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Old Aug 09, 2009, 09:23 PM
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American in Japan
Joined Mar 2001
2,501 Posts
Hold your horses, more info coming on the best Hyperion motors for high speed applications. I'm testing some 40e Nemesis NXT prototype models at the moment. We started with Hs motor cores in a Zs mount config, but for this type of fast sport model I think a 10 magnet or 14 magnet motor might be better (compared to 8 mag Hs, which have relatively high Ri per Kv). Samples of those are on the way to my office in Japan, and will be tested when I return there (as well as Zs4025-8 motor).

In the end, I am guessing that an 8 mag Hs motor might suit very (very) slippery models like the best pylon racers, using small props at very high rpm, and a 10 or 14 mag motor for models with more drag, with a bigger prop.

And of course the Hs are ideal for helicopters with their tall numeric gearing.

D


Quote:
Originally Posted by c/f
WHAT ### HS HIGH SPEED???? Shut up dude I just got the Zs in April to go fast at SEFF, I need to beta test that Hs in my Outlaw,

For what its worth APC inserts for their props are 9.5mm OD and Hyperion sells aluminum ones that are 9.5 OD and variuos ID to fit props, VERY top notch product line. Personal power to weight I cant find any motors to come close to the new Hyperion Z lineup..........

Mcmaster carr sells a 9.5 reamer...............02
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Old Aug 09, 2009, 11:12 PM
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Boise, ID
Joined Dec 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NipponDave
He should also have sent you this link, which shows all the measurements and explains the mounting options.

Please do check the dimensions listed against your stock motor to see if the Zs3020 will fit. If so, I would say that you'll want a 10x5 prop to start. That will still probably be about 50%+ more peak current than you had before, but should stay together on your stock mount. Then you'll have the option of a lot more power on tap when you want it, or throttle back for long crusing flights. The much higher efficiency of the Zs will give a surplus you can split between more power, or even longer flights...

If you are open for advice, I think it a bit unrealistic to expect that you could use a stock prop, especially if it uses a - pardon me - strange 5mm hole design. APC E props are widely regarded as being some of the most efficient available, fit standard M6 prop shafts, and will make the most of your motor and battery.

Please feel free to ask more advice as you go. We're here to help...

David
Heck yes I'm open for advice, and thanks very much for that, David. I appreciate it. Also, Bob was a very nice guy, on the phone.

Although I've read the various threads on power systems, and even tried to calculate loads, I'm still a bit lost as far a figuring out equivalent amp loads, etc. I'll get there eventually, I'm sure.

The stock prop has about a 9mm hole diam., and fits on the stock aluminum prop adapter, which has an inside ID of 5mm for the E-flite motor shaft, then about 9mm at where the prop fits on. Sorry if I mis-stated that.

I've decided it might be best to call All e RC Monday morning and get a back mount kit, and check out what this motor can do. I'll go buy some APC props from my LHS, and it seems a prop reamer is in my future, too.

I saw the spec sheet you referenced, and yes, your motor is shorter than the E-flite Power 25, (54mm) by almost 10 mm. But the stock prop is more than 10mm from the cowl, so with a spacer or two, the 3020-10 should fit OK, and prop should clear the front of the cowl, OK.

Question: What is M6? M8? Does that refer to mm diam of the shaft?

The stock black plastic spinner looks great, and I'd like to keep the look. I'll have to figure out the spinner deal when/if I go to the APC props, but I guess that's just something to figure out.

Thanks again.

Tom

BTW, I've spent about six months, I think, in Japan, except it was one to two weeks at a time on lots of biz trips. Didn't live on the economy, though, (always large and small hotels all over, basically) but always wanted to live there for a year or two. We had some engineers who lived there for a year, and it was quite an adventure for them. I learned the language, very basically. Had wonderful experiences there, working with Japanese suppliers and co-developers. Seen lots of Honshu; north as far as Sendai, I think it was, and as far south as Shikoku. Visited Hiroshima on that trip. (If you haven't visited there yet, try to go. It's an easy Shinkansen trip, and you'll never forget it. We were there on a hot sunny Sunday in August, if you get my drift.) Have seen NMB bearings being built, and other bearing suppliers, too. Nidec was a big supplier, and their factory was up north of Tokyo, and their HQ was near Kyoto. Kyoto, as I'm sure you know, is a great place to visit. Don't know if any of those factories are even still there, with manufacturing moved to China, but I hope they are. Lots of good Japanese folks were employed in those factories. So, a part of me envies your current living experience.
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Old Aug 10, 2009, 12:40 AM
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Dylwad's Avatar
Phoenix,Arizona, United States
Joined Jun 2002
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M6 and M8 refer to the metric threads on the prop adapters. Also, you dont need a prop reamer for APC E props, the center hole in them is larger on the back side, and smaller on the front, the back side is a precision hole for using the adapter/centering rings that come with the prop, or the fancy aluminum rings that hyperion makes. The front hole is not centered on the prop, as it is where they inject the plastic composite material when molding them. If your shaft is too big to fir through the front hole, just drill it out carefully to have a little bit of clearance on the shaft.

As for spinners, your LHS probably has plenty that will fit, but you may have to get a long collet for some of them, as you can run out of shaft quick when using spinners with thick backing plates.

A note on collet prop adapters, make sure the shaft and inside of the collet is clean before installation, and it helps to put a very small amount of grease on the threads and between the prop washer and center shaft of the collet~Dont get any grease on the motor shaft though!!! Make sure its plenty tight before flight, and check its tightness after the first flight, and periodically after that.

Some rosin(like what you use on violin bowstrings, or for baseball pitchers) on the motor shaft helps with the grip, but most of us have never seen the need to use it.

As far as figuring amp draw, the cheap DMM's dont do well above 10 amps usually, what would be better is to check voltage at full throttle, and compare it to voltage on the Hyperion prop charts http://media.hyperion.hk/dn/zs/ZS30propdata.pdf to get an idea of amp draw. Your eflite battery will most definately hold less voltage than whats in the charts, giving you a lower amp draw than whats in the charts, your TP pack will have more punch, and will be pretty close to the prop data chart numbers. Take Daves advice and start with a 10x5 APCE prop, should give you 20 amps +- and nice long flights with plenty of power.

EZcalc is good for predicting amp draw on a setup, helps to know what voltage your batteries hold under a load, and what RPM the prop is running at to compare its results to real life. http://brantuas.com/ezcalc/dma1.asp Motor parameters can be found http://www.hyperion-world.com/produc...t/HP-ZS3020-10

A whattmeter is a very good investment, especially on the larger setups.
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Old Aug 10, 2009, 07:59 AM
I like the violent stuff!
Costa Mesa, CA
Joined Oct 2004
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soft shaft

Dave again I'd like to point out I'm a thirty year master machinist. I'm not a metalurgist, but I make my living working with metal and I know metals like a pharmasist knows anatomy. I pulled the shaft out of my old Scorpion after getting close to a thousand flight on it, with many mishaps similar to the one that that bent the new Zs shaft. If the new Scorpions are being made with the same material they are headed down the wrong road also. I realize design is a balance and compromise, too hard a shaft and they snap instead of bend. Too soft a shaft and they bend way too easy. It's been a long time since I was a salaried supervisor and had to order material. But I'm sure when you consider the small size of a 3mm shaft, the cost difference would not be that much. Just for a comparison I had an old threaded 3mm GWS shaft laying around. When I used to fly them I thought they were too soft, but they are more robust than the new Hyperion. But I have to admit I'm very happy with the performance and efficiency of the new motors.
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Old Aug 10, 2009, 11:59 AM
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Joined Nov 2005
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I'm often surprised by the number of people who report bent motor shafts on various motors. I've never yet bent a single shaft an I've put thousands of flights on a wide range of motors. Perhaps my landings are too smooth?
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Old Aug 10, 2009, 12:22 PM
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The Zs30 backmount adapters come in two types, M6 and M8. Those refer to the OD of the shaft which mates with the prop. Therefore if your prop has a 6mm hole (or included adapter ring, like all APC E from 14" and below, I think) you'll want the M6 version. The M8 is only for fitting larger props, or if you have a spinner with M8 ID and you are willing to ream the prop to match.

Basically M6 is the one you want in most cases with Zs30 series motors...

Wayne - I'll talk with Georges about the shaft hardness. Thanks.

Tom - The backmount sets come with hardply wood spacers that you can use to make up the few mm difference you need. If you're ever in Japan again, drop by! We're in Fukuoka, so it's a little south-west of Shikoku.

David
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Old Aug 10, 2009, 01:51 PM
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Joined Nov 2008
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not the shafts are to weak - the main reason is the user!
when the shaft is able to spin into the inner bearing ring, this is the begin of the end.
pyro p.e. has very hard shafts and got the same problems.

and a to hard shaft in addition will break because it isn't able to flex. the material must be stringly, not hard.


about some shaft- problems:
www.powercroco.de/wartung.html
use google translation!
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Old Aug 11, 2009, 10:41 PM
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Boise, ID
Joined Dec 2008
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Update: Called All e RC, ordered the back mount kit and a couple props, as suggested. Should arrive tomorrow or next day, and will install and go flying.

Fukuoka: Not sure, but I think I've been there, to visit a Sumitomo facility or maybe it was a sintering plant. Can't quite remember. I remember flying from Tokyo airport up to a city on the Sea of Japan, and we flew in during a storm and very high winds. Final approach was over the water, and lots of white caps, roiling sea, scary.
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