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Old Mar 24, 2003, 04:00 PM
the journey is the reward
Hammer Head's Avatar
Canada
Joined Apr 2002
1,535 Posts
Those who courted Saddam while he gassed Iranians are now waging war against him

I am back, computer upgraded, got my old RC id going again.

Although I have many concerns about how this forum is moderated as it relateds to content and a precieved double standard, I wanted to pass this compelling documentation along to those who may be interested.

If you still think this is NOT about oil, at least read the whole report before you flame me.

"Crude Vision:

EXPOSED: How Oil Interests Obscured US Government Focus On Chemical Weapons Use by Saddam Hussein

The Institute For Political Studies
Investigative report by Jim Vallette
with Steve Kretzmann and Daphne Wysham"

http://ips-dc.org/crudevision/crude_vision.pdf


"This brief examines never-before-published government and corporate memoranda, letters, and telegrams, which we found in the National Archives, along with government documents recently published by the National Security Archives. Selected copies of the National Archives correnspondence are indexed below, and available on our website in Adobe Acrobat format. "

Others are cited herein and are available upon request. The National Security Archives-released documents may be found at: http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/

"This examination shines a new spotlight on the incredible revolving door between Bechtel and the Reagan administration that drove U.S.-Iraq interactions between 1983 and 1985. The men who courted Saddam while he gassed Iranians are now waging war against him, ostensibly because he holds weapons of mass destruction...

...these men shaped and implemented a strategy that has everything to do with securing Iraqi oil exports."

HH
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Old Mar 24, 2003, 04:20 PM
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Hankstone's Avatar
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Joined Aug 2002
876 Posts
Sorry to hear you're back.... I mean, welcome back

Quote:
Although I have many concerns about how this forum is moderated as it relateds to content and a precieved double standard, I wanted to pass this compelling documentation along to those who may be interested.
As one who has been called to the mat on more than one occasion for crossing the line, I can say your accusation against the moderators of this forum is rediculous. Within the rules you can say whatever you want.

As to the rest of your post, didn't you mean to post this in the "Vast Conspiracy Theories" thread?
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Old Mar 24, 2003, 04:33 PM
Go get them Meg!
lrsudog's Avatar
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Joined Jan 2001
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Unbiased reportage without agenda? I don't think so;

http://www.seen.org/pages/reports.shtml


And Jim Vallette's co-authors on this one, Steve Kretzmann and Daphne Wysham?

Also quite active on the extreme left.

http://www.risingtide.org.uk/pages/aboutus.html

or;

http://amsterdam.nettime.org/Lists-A.../msg00688.html


Greenpeace, IPS, Anti Capitalist Convergence Organization?


They have no more credibility then Dick Chaney, as far as I'm concerned.
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Old Mar 24, 2003, 04:41 PM
the journey is the reward
Hammer Head's Avatar
Canada
Joined Apr 2002
1,535 Posts
SO, just cause they are "extreme left" in your opinion

...one can outright dismiss their findings/opinions?

With respect, that seems like to simple an answer for such a complex situation/question.

Fell free to disparage those who wrote the article, but refuting of the information as presented?????

Humbly, Refute the information not the presenters.


SEEN

"The Sustainable Energy and Economy Network, a project of the Institute for Policy Studies (Washington, DC) and the Transnational Institute (Amsterdam), works in partnership with citizens groups nationally and globally on environment, human rights and development issues with a particular focus on energy, climate change, environmental justice, gender equity, and economic issues, particularly as these play out in North/South relations."

Ya, buch of commies eh?


"As one who has been called to the mat on more than one occasion for crossing the line, I can say your accusation against the moderators of this forum is rediculous. Within the rules you can say whatever you want. " Hank

Hank give me a break.

I made no "accusations".

I stated I had concerns as precieved by moi.

To try and dodge the findings with "conspiracy" remarks etc... ...keep trying.


HH
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Last edited by Hammer Head; Mar 24, 2003 at 04:53 PM.
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Old Mar 24, 2003, 05:00 PM
Account disabled
Arkansas
Joined Nov 2002
141 Posts
POSTS

It is a shame some elect to make L O N G boring posts.........I do not read the dail paper because it is so boring......Get to your point...make it.....get out!
This is not the UN...(Thank God)....
E.
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Old Mar 24, 2003, 05:12 PM
the journey is the reward
Hammer Head's Avatar
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E=IXR

Yawn.

I know, lots of big words etc...

HH
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Old Mar 24, 2003, 05:15 PM
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Semantics. By stating you have "concerns" I think most would agree you are in fact making an accusation, but fine, you want to stick to "concerns", ok.

Your concerns are baseless as I've already said. The gentlemen who moderate the OTD forum do a fine job of ignoring content of argument, focusing instead on following simple rules that keep us from getting out of hand. (Except for Brian Cullen, he is always unfair to those on the right ) (j/k Brian)
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Old Mar 24, 2003, 05:21 PM
Go get them Meg!
lrsudog's Avatar
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HH, I was not attempting to disparage them at all, even though that is of course the end result.

I simply do not have time to double check every piece of information that someone who has such an obvious agenda that I feel is extreme happens to report.

While I personally am incredibly enthused by alternate fuels, (to the point where I invest in the sector heavily), that certainly does not mean that I agree with the premise that there actually needs to be a group known as "The Anti Capitalist Convergence".

Further, I did not state that I didn't believe or disbelieve.

To paraphrase, I said that I don't trust anyone with this large an axe to grind, from either the extreme left or the extreme right.

I can dismiss their words easily, because they have a track record of bias against my belief system. I've read several articles by Vallete and Wysham before, and in every one, they reach far different conclusions then I do.


And "Extreme left in my opinion"? Oh Please. Give me a couple of examples of those much farther over on the scale.
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Old Mar 24, 2003, 05:22 PM
Go get them Meg!
lrsudog's Avatar
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Re: E=IXR

Quote:
Originally posted by Hammer Head
Yawn.

I know, lots of big words etc...

HH
Funny!
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Old Mar 24, 2003, 05:25 PM
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What a deal

You guys get the picture........The big picture....Thanks for your breif attention to this matter.......No LONG quotes....to the point!
Thanks guys......
Please don't get me wrong.......some of the replies are quotes and boring......just my opinion...we all have one or the other.
I just hate reading War and Peace over again...
Thanks,
E
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Old Mar 24, 2003, 05:48 PM
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Walled Lake, MI, USA
Joined Feb 2000
11,182 Posts
Sorry, HH. I've followed too many of your links before, and didn't really learn very much. I consider myself to be fairly neutral. I'm an independent voter, not a Republican or a Democrat. Neither do I conveniently fit into any liberal or conservative cubby hole. I vote for those who I believe are best for my country and the world in general at the time of the election. I support whoever is in office, whether I voted for them or not. I base my decisions on factual information as much as possible. I do not get along well with biased propaganda. I'm afraid I'm just not a good candidate for your suggested reading.
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Old Mar 24, 2003, 05:59 PM
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Joined Jun 2001
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dave Hederich
I consider myself to be fairly neutral. I'm an independent voter, not a Republican or a Democrat. Neither do I conveniently fit into any liberal or conservative cubby hole. I vote for those who I believe are best for my country and the world in general at the time of the election. I support whoever is in office, whether I voted for them or not. I base my decisions on factual information as much as possible. I do not get along well with biased propaganda.
Hey, me too.
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Last edited by William A; Mar 24, 2003 at 06:33 PM.
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Old Mar 24, 2003, 06:28 PM
jollyroger
Central Lake, Mi.
Joined Nov 2002
1,025 Posts
Strange alliances

Hammer Head, I can't help but realise those who disagree with you were ardent supporters of both Regan and Bush. However that does nothing to diminish the FACT that both these presidents did indeed approve the sale of the chemical and biological agents used by Iraqi govt. No matter how hard they try to dismiss you findings, they simply cannot make the facts dissapear. Gentlemen these are the facts and no amount of whining and cussing is going to change them!
With all the documentation that is now available, the evidence is clearly indisputable. LIVE with it!
The agents sold to Iraq are Dengue fever, anthrax, Botulism, Smallpox and gangrene gas.There are more but I cannot remember them all. Furthermore The Regan adm. also approved the sale of technology by Honeywell Corp. to produce cluster bombs. This was reported a number of years ago on Frontline.
Burying your heads in the sand will not make it go away. You are simply going to have to deal with on your own. Maybe some of you will finally realise thet some of your heros aren't any better than some of your villains. John Z.
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Old Mar 24, 2003, 06:31 PM
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My point stressed

The last last posters are great.
Read them......I did not have the time...sorry..
E.
Be brief guys....you can make your point without going into American history.....Pease.
You fail to impress the majority. I assure you.
Are you yearning for attention????
Have the urge to talk in circles..?
Did mother dominate....hummmmmmm.
I love the posts......Jut put the boring BEC on.
E.
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Old Mar 24, 2003, 06:42 PM
the journey is the reward
Hammer Head's Avatar
Canada
Joined Apr 2002
1,535 Posts
Hey lrsudog,

"I can dismiss their words easily, because they have a track record of bias against my belief system. I've read several articles by Vallete and Wysham before, and in every one, they reach far different conclusions then I do." lrsudog

That is a very straight up answer. You certainly have the ability to look at your “belief system” or what I call a personal "frame of reference" objectively IMHO.

We can never be totally objective, we are emotional beings.

Many of us deny this, stating we are fully objective or neutral when dealing with “hot button” issues and/or momentous or grave world events.

We all have biases, no matter how much we reassure ourselves we are fully objective or neutral.

Other times I see response with subtle use of language to demean the other person/post, often stating they don’t want to respond on the basis the information provided has no merit and/or value or interest to them.

These types of posts are truly redundant as far as contributing to the thread, or providing an alternate opinion for review and consideration, and really are only made in an attempt deride the threads worth.

These types of post bug me more than inflammatory rhetoric posts unsupported by any facts.

I digress, thanks for the post.

HH
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