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Old Sep 23, 2009, 07:43 PM
I fly, therefore, I crash!!!
SteveT.'s Avatar
San Jose, CA
Joined Jan 2008
26,678 Posts
Hi Ron....

I bought both an 18X10E APC, and, just for "schnitz & giggles" a 19X4, in case I want to slow it down a bit. I will be finishing my plane this week hopefully, but for the last two days have been helping my son with a new plane.

How do you like that Extra??? I have been looking at it, but the website says 5-5.5 pounds. That's about where my 3D Hobbyshop Yak 54 is. I just bought the new 3D Hobbyshop Extra 330SC, which is about a pound lighter at 4.4 to 4.8 pounds...

SteveT
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Old Sep 23, 2009, 08:58 PM
Assistant Pitman's Helper
R.Gareau's Avatar
Laval, Quebec, Canada
Joined Jul 2009
199 Posts
Hi Ron,

here is my set-up and the results I'm getting in the Samson

Zs4025-14
Hyperion ATLAS 90A 6S ESC, Switching BEC
6s CX 4000 batteries (84g of lead in the cowl to get the proper CG)
I have tried these APC props 15 X 8, 16 X8, 16 X 10, 17 X10, My tranmitter timer is set for 4 minutes power on (from 20%+)

the results
The 15 X 8 and 16 X 8 really don't cut it and I land with about 3,8 volt per cell
The 16 X 10 is Ok and I land with about 3,7 volt per cell
The 17 X 10 is the best flying but after the 4 minute flight the battery is lower then I like it at about 3.6 volt per cell, and the motor is very hot

My conclusion is the I should of gotten the Zs4025-16 and 5000ma 6s batteries, start with the 17 X 10 and try the 18 X 10

Anybody wants a Zs 4025-14 cheap???

Actually I have been looking to buy the EF 58" extra I wonder what the Zs 4025-14 would do in it with 5s?

Richard
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Old Sep 23, 2009, 11:51 PM
Citizen #96
Steve Graham's Avatar
NE Denver, CO
Joined Sep 2007
722 Posts
Build update:

I've been taking my time but am finally getting close to finished.

Most everything went together great but as with most arfs their were some issues. I will highlight these in order to help others out. Some have already been mentioned but if I had the same problem I will add it as well.

The elevator and the aileron pushrods are WAAAY to long. Part of the problem was the Servos I used. Someone mentioned that their servos were ok but I made the mistake of using the Hyperion servos specd out on the front of the box. With these servos there is no way to center the output shaft in the middle of the mounting plate cutout as the servo will hang off the edge of the mounting plate and prevent you from getting it in. The next problem with the aileron servos was that the supplied mounting blocks were not large enough to get the two servo mounting screws into. This was an easy fix with some basswood stock I had on hand. I put the servo right up against the edge of the mounting plate. So close in fact that I actually still had to clearance the mounting block a little with my dremel to get the plate into place. Now as to the servo arms on the recommended Hyperion servos. Not long enough or even close to long enough. Trip to the LHS to get some Dubro heavy duty arms. Once I got everything in I realized that the only way to get the pushrod short enough was to screw both ends on so far that the pushrod was starting to deform the plastic ends. The rod was still just a little too long so I centered the aileron by using sub trim. The control arms I got are still a little short but it doesn't matter they hit the forward edge of the cutout long before I can get full throw. I really don't see how Hyperion could have possibly set this model up with their recommended servos without realizing they had some serious issues.

Moving on to the aileron interconnects they were too long too. I attempted to screw them shorter and the glue broke that was on the carbon rod. I thought that the allthread was screwed into this so I attempted to shorten the rod by turning it. I was somewhat confused because after several turns the rod had not shortened at all. Upon further investigation I discovered the reason for the glue on the rod. I had never seen this type of setup before and thought it odd that there was glue on the threads. Those aren't threads folks and the allthread rod is not allthread. Only the part that screws into the plastic ball ends is threaded. The rest of the rod is smooth and is simply slid into the carbon rod and then glued in place. I Don't know how common this practice is but as I said it confused the hell out of me and at first I did not even realize that once the glue broke loose there was nothing to hold the rod in place but good intentions. Thank God I didn't try to fly it like that I don't really trust things I don't understand and will make another trip to the LHS to get hardware I can trust. I noticed that Gerhard Hanssmann a few posts up had this same issue during his build. That was a very nice review BTW. Use the google translator.

I used a 3 mm tap to clean up the holes on the aluminum interplane strut lugs. I also got a set of stainless screws at ACE HW. I got them a little shorter in a couple of cases so they don't stick out so far and they really look nice. I also picked up split washers so I can lock things down without using lock tight.

I have a long spring loaded pair of tweezers and a 2.5mm ball driver that really eased the cowl installation.

Its ready to go with the exception of some fine tuning of the controls and rates. I got it weighed in at 8lbs 15.5 oz. A little heavy at essentially 9 lbs but almost 2 lbs of that is the g3 6s 5500 battery. I think the wings on this model will handle it fine. My initial CG checks show this Ginormous battery will sit with its trailing edge about 4 inches forward of the rudder servo. Plenty of room for moving CG either way.


Dave mentioned that a lot of work has gone into the development of this model and I believe it. It is simply stunning; however, FWIW if it were my company I would not release something I had put this much work into with out a much improved manual. Just my 2 cents.

Tailwinds, Steve
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Old Sep 24, 2009, 12:14 AM
Citizen #96
Steve Graham's Avatar
NE Denver, CO
Joined Sep 2007
722 Posts
I've never had a plane I felt a strong desire to put a pilot in but this ones attitude seems to match the plane.

Pamela

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Old Sep 24, 2009, 12:21 AM
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maverickma's Avatar
Fogelsville, PA
Joined Mar 2004
670 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by W.W. Corrigan
I've never had a plane I felt a strong desire to put a pilot in but this ones attitude seems to match the plane.

Pamela

Being a little "top heavy" herself, won't she throw off the CG?!?
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Old Sep 24, 2009, 01:48 AM
Registered User
Joined Feb 2005
123 Posts
I'm using the 4025-16 motor with a Scorpion 90 amp 6 cell esc with switching
BEC. It's the same esc that Hyperion sells but has a 2 yr warranty! I don't
know of any other esc manufacturer that has a 2 yr warranty. Most are only
90 days.
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Old Sep 24, 2009, 07:21 AM
Registered User
Joined Jul 2004
14 Posts
Thanks to all for the recommendations on the ESC, will look at my local hobby shop this evening and hopefully get one next week so I can fly it next weekend.

Hi Richard and Steve
The Extreme Flight Extra flies great and build in abot 6 hours, using a Turnagy motor at the same specs that Extreme recommend for their engine, running a 5000 @ 5S and fly it most of the time at half throttle.

Ron
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Old Sep 24, 2009, 06:34 PM
Citizen #96
Steve Graham's Avatar
NE Denver, CO
Joined Sep 2007
722 Posts
Just got all the new stuff to do the controls properly. I'll be using 2-56 on all of it as the 2mm was not available. I think I'll be glad I spent the time and money to get it all right. It's just too nice a model to fly with controls that are sketchy. Interestingly, the guy I bought this model from had control rods that were too long on another Hyperion model, not the Samson, that he built. On the advice of another LHS owner who is an experienced modeler I'm going to stay with the aileron interconnect scheme. I went ahead and pulled the rods out of both ends on both interconnects. All but 2 were actually pretty solidly glued in so that I ended up destroying the carbon tube to get the rods out. I roughed up the metal rod ends with the sander drum on my dremel and cleaned them good with alcohol and will re-glue with epoxy.

I've always been a little nervous on the first run up of a new power system since my very first brushed 350 can motor on my slow stick smoked within seconds of plugging it in and allowed the motor to go to full power until I managed to unplug the beast. I've also never run up a model with this much power not to mention the fact that the Hyperion motor uses a collet and not bolt on prop adaptor. Also, I've heard that long battery leads and high amperage can be hard on an ESC. This is the case when you have an inline wattmeter hooked up. Supposedly you should use a current clamp to protect the ESC. Everything worked fine. 66 amps and 1560 watts. Thats 170 watts/lb give or take. I'm psyched.

Possible maiden tomorrow evening if I get all the controls figured out tonight.

Steve
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Old Sep 25, 2009, 12:24 PM
Registered User
Ohio
Joined Apr 2008
2 Posts
I just got mine and have been reading the great suggestions in this post. I was a very surprised and pleased with the quality of the plane.
I see that a lot of people are using the Hyperion, motors but I was wondering if anyone has used any other kind of motor. I was looking at a 90 eflight and a Castle ESC.
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Old Sep 25, 2009, 01:56 PM
Citizen #96
Steve Graham's Avatar
NE Denver, CO
Joined Sep 2007
722 Posts
OK maiden this evening if the rain holds.

As I sat down to re-do the controls it struck me that I could possibly achieve the shorter length by dremeling off about 1/8th inch from each end. Normally I find it hard to use my dremel on threads and still get a clean end for a nut to take but since these rods bore into plastic ball ends I thought it would be a little more forgiving. Well it worked like a charm and I now have all of my controls set up as near perfect as I can get them. I used the following triple rates measured in degrees.

Aileron: Low = 12 up and 6 down.
Med = 30 up and 15 down.
High = 40 up and 20 down. Control limit.

Elevator: Low = 10 up and down.
Med = 20 up and down.
High = 38 up and down. Control Limit.

Rudder: Low = Half of full.
Med = Full control throw short of hitting elevator.
High = Same as above.

The low and med rates I chose are basically those recomended by Gudmund from Hyperion in Europe earlier in this thread.
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Old Sep 25, 2009, 09:57 PM
Citizen #96
Steve Graham's Avatar
NE Denver, CO
Joined Sep 2007
722 Posts
Soooo....

Check, check, check it again. Ok good to fly. About a 20 foot roll with a moderate power application and she jumps into the air. I get it up to altitude and something just feels wrong. Fly a little, trim a little, is my trim working, I can't hear it, oh yeah I turned off the warning beeps, thats disorienting. Still there's somthing wrong with the way this thing handles. It seems to lack pitch stability. This thing acts like real flight when I experiment with aft CG. I checked CG like 15 times? Lets see here, roll it inverted, let go of the elevator and Samson completes the outside loop with no operator input. That seals it. Oh well lets see if we can get it back on the ground. Bring it in with some power and somehow get lucky and get it on ok.

Bring it home and double check all things CG. My CG marks are at 210 mm from the leading edge. They should be at 90. So I move my 2lb battery like almost all the way forward. Actually up to within about 3 inches of the firewall.

2nd and 3rd flights go off in a much more relaxed fashion. The model slows down nicely and at my low rates I really don't have enough elevator authority to stall it so that makes the landing approach easier. Stalls mush staight ahead for the most part and the rudder remains effective to manage roll. There is certainly enough power to 3D with this power set up but I'm going to take that real slow for now. The FS pitts is notoriously bad manered on the ground. Watch the video and note the rudder flailing after touchdown to keep it straight. I knew a guy who owned a pitts and had flown airobatics most of his adult life. I asked him about ground handling and he said that it was always exciting. This model hasn't evidently inherited any of the FS models traits in this regard.

After about an 8 minute mixed flight, only a couple of short hovers I only put 2500 mah back into my 5500mah battery. I like that alot.

There does seem to be some coupling and I expected that. I will hold off on a lot of evaluative comments until I get a chance to get some time on it.

I was hoping to get some photos today and had my camera but no one else showed up at the field.

I did feel that the low rates seemed like they might be a little too low but they work fine for any basic maneuver. Roll rate is a little low on low rates but comes right up on higher rates. I have 50% aileron differential dial in and while that may help with low speed handling characteristics the Samson wallows a little when I roll it so I will probably experiment some with reducing the diff.

Always a good day when a model gets successfully maidened, Steve
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Old Sep 25, 2009, 09:59 PM
Assistant Pitman's Helper
R.Gareau's Avatar
Laval, Quebec, Canada
Joined Jul 2009
199 Posts
Hi Steve,

You did not use the suggested symetric Aileron throws? Why
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Old Sep 25, 2009, 10:02 PM
Assistant Pitman's Helper
R.Gareau's Avatar
Laval, Quebec, Canada
Joined Jul 2009
199 Posts
Hey CONGRATS!!!

I tought you had to much Dif on the ailerons that<s why I asked before
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Old Sep 25, 2009, 10:03 PM
Assistant Pitman's Helper
R.Gareau's Avatar
Laval, Quebec, Canada
Joined Jul 2009
199 Posts
What Prop did you have on for the maiden?
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Old Sep 25, 2009, 10:25 PM
Citizen #96
Steve Graham's Avatar
NE Denver, CO
Joined Sep 2007
722 Posts
[PHP]Hi Steve,

You did not use the suggested symetric Aileron throws? Why
[/PHP]
They are roughly Go-flight's numbers from post 56. It seemed that differential would be of value to help with any sort of tip stalling issues the model might have and he represents himself as a Hyperion employee. Who knows? On retrospect double differential rates are a LOT. I will definately dial those down.

[PHP]What Prop did you have on for the maiden?[/PHP]
APC 18*12. I measured 66 amps and 1560 watts static. I think the prop is cavitating pretty badly though. I would like to try one of the Zoar props everyone is talking about.

Also there was a slight rub on the lower right face of the cowl with the trailing edge of the prop so when I got home I removed it. I noticed a ring of oil that the motor had spun off around the inside of the cowl. Probably just a motor break in issue. With everything I did to ensure the prop stayed on plus a small dab of blue locktite that prop isn't going anywhere without a prybar.

Steve
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