Desmond Morris of "The Naked Ape" and "The Human Zoo"

NewbieX · Aug 01, 2001, 04:58 PM

I'd read his book "The Naked Ape" years ago and just began reading "Human Zoo". While I don't agree entirely...he really affected the way I think about humanity. He's a behavioral zoologist that decided to start looking at humans from that slant. I think he did a series of shows based on his books which sometimes are on A&E, Discovery, etc. Anyone else read/seen/heard Desmond. If so, I'd like to chat about it. Agree, disagree? I imagine he has been attacked (and possibly debunked) from many quarters, especially considering our politically correct slant these days. These books were written about thirty years ago.

I find his analysis of the human condition pretty compelling and I found the forward to this book downright chilling. Here it is.

"When the pressures of modern living become heavy, the harrassed city-dweller often refers to his teeming world as a concrete jungle. This is a colorful way of describing the pattern of life in a dense urban community, but it is also grossly inaccurate, as anyone who has studied a real jungle will confirm.

Under normal conditions, in their natural habitats, wild animals do not mutilate themselves, **********, attack their offspring, develop stomach ulcers, become fetishists, suffer from obesity, form homosexual pairbonds or commit murder. Among human city-dwellers, needless to say, all of these things occur. Does this, then, reveal a basic difference between the human species amd other animals? At first glance it seems to do so. But this is deceptive. Other animals do behave in these ways under certain circumstances, namely when they are confined in the unnatural conditions of captivity. The zoo animal in a cage exhibits all these abnormalities that we know so well from our human companions. Clearly, then, the city is not a concrete jungle, it is a human zoo."
D Morris, 1969, Human Zoo, Dell Publishing

logan5 · Aug 01, 2001, 05:16 PM

Dolphins have been known to "copulate" with members of the same sex. And I've seen documentries about primates having sexual encounters with members of the same sex. They of course don't form pair bonds .. but then so few animals in the real world mate for life.

so I guess he got that part sort of wrong.

logan5

NewbieX · Aug 01, 2001, 05:50 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by logan5:
Dolphins have been known to "copulate" with members of the same sex. And I've seen documentries about primates having sexual encounters with members of the same sex. They of course don't form pair bonds .. but then so few animals in the real world mate for life.

so I guess he got that part sort of wrong.

logan5

I wondered about that too. Do you remember if these situations with the dolphins and the primates are in the wild or in controlled environments?

Travis · Aug 01, 2001, 10:00 PM

The more "intellegent" the species, the more
opportunity to make mistakes, to defy the
natural order of procreation. So while there
may be occasional homosexual acts among non-
humans, it's a very small percentage compared
to the perversity of humanity.

NewbieX · Aug 02, 2001, 12:47 AM

I didn't really focus on the homosexual part of the passage, but rather that he compares modern human urban living to captivity. Interestingly, another author, Daniel Quinn makes the same assertion. It's a running theme in many books, movies, etc-that of a character feeling trapped or actually being unable to escape a certain situation.

Are we trapped by ourselves, our responsibilities, our relationships, our possessions, our homes and offices, cars and trucks, etc.

The first thing I thought when I read that was how so many people talk about hobbies like motorcycling, climbing, backpacking, etc. as a "getting out of the box (cage)" sort of idea. Then I thought about a number of jobs I had where there was a significant commute in the car (yikes).

I guess I should finish the book before I start arguing with it or deciding he's on to something.

Megowcoupe · Aug 02, 2001, 09:15 AM

I read his book "Bodywatching" which is a nice tour of human physiognomy from the feet to the head. It's a good coffee table book.

I don't think that all of his ideas have been debunked, but better naturalist studies have shown a fair amount of homosexuality amongst primates in the wild. Not sure about dolphins- that may only be in controlled environments.

I think the current thinking on human/animal behavior is that just about any animal behavior is also reflected in human behavior. It's not so surprising- lots of stuff is inherent and we share the same genes as the rest of the animal/plant kingdom. Trying to figure out what makes human beings "special" ends up showing that humans are part of nature as well- thus "unnatural" behavior is really hard to define.

Sam Brauer
Norwalk, CT

philo · Aug 04, 2001, 06:30 PM

Newbie,

Hello from another newbie. I read Morriss' book on the way out of a weird cult which didn't believe in evolution. SO I being very naughty. Anyway I loved the book, it was like my first fix of intellectual heroine. I can't remember much about it now - often the way with hard drugs, I'm told - but the chapters on human sex were outstanding, I mean it. The ideas about early humans as shore-dwelling, pseudo-amphibians (that's a travesty of his idea, but nevermind) must have been overturned, but the ideas about sex still seem good to me.

One of these idea was the delicate covering, skin and almost no hair, that we have being about the enjoyment of sex and touch.

Can you remind me of some of his other ideas, my wife burned my copy along with many other literary treasures. Oh well.

philo

philo · Aug 04, 2001, 06:34 PM

Also I remember the covering up of genitalia (clothes) being described as a way to regualte sexual agression etc, WOW that was new to me.

philo

Luxor · Aug 04, 2001, 07:18 PM

Philo, A little off topic hear. Did I read that your wife BURNED books? That is the behavior of an ignorent mind. And was it a cult or christianity? I answered myself, it's the same thing.

On subject. Watched the discovery channel the other night and saw that there is an offshoot of chimps that copulate constantly, male-male, female-female, young and old. The same chimps, when they hit teenage age form gangs and terrorize other animals. Sound familier. These chimps were also observed in REM sleep, I guess humans are not unique after all. I am of the belief that ALL creatures are sentiant. Everything has a soul, not just man. Sometime human arrogence disgusts me.
Eric S.

Looooeeee! · Aug 04, 2001, 11:01 PM

Hi

I think the group of chimpanzees you're referring to are the Benobo (don't know real spelling). They also face one another when mating, with a fair amount of eye contact, (normally an aggressive gesture). The natives who share the forest with these chimps hold them in high regard, say that they taught them sex...

Thank you Luxor, I also concur

Looee

Luxor · Aug 04, 2001, 11:53 PM

Thanks LOOEE. That was the name I couldn't remember.
I want everyone to know that the christianity comment was a little over the top. Sorry.
I do agree with alot of what Morris has to say. We are caged by our society.
Eric S.

Gerald · Aug 05, 2001, 02:44 AM

...

Luxor · Aug 05, 2001, 02:52 AM

Gerald, Yes, scientists think it IS unusual. that is exaclty my point. Animals DREAM.
Dogs and cats have feelings as well as fish.
They are just on a different level then us.
I have had pets for years, and have come to realize that they matter as much as we do.
I just lost my cat to cancer, she was 4 years old. I know animals can think, cause she taught heself to fetch and retrieve just like our dog does. She also had quite an understanding of human words. My brother and I gave her a little IQ test one day, by saying words and seeing if she understood them. At last count she knew about 20 words. Very interesting. The question we SHOULD be asking is, are they self aware? If we can answer that, everything else falls into place. Very interesting.
Eric S.

[This message has been edited by Luxor (edited 08-05-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Luxor (edited 08-05-2001).]

Gerald · Aug 05, 2001, 03:34 AM

...

Luxor · Aug 05, 2001, 03:51 AM

Very good points Gerald. Sounds like were on the same side of the fence hear. You've just explained it a little better then I did.
And, Oh yea, dogs smile.
A good friend of mine is a K9 officer, and has to hold back his own smile when his partner(K9) smiles before a chase. You tell him to smile and he gently bares his teeth, all the while, he can't stop his tail. Hilarious acctualy. Very, very, intelligent dog, almost spooky.
Eric S.

Aug 01, 2001, 04:58 PM	#1
NewbieX Human Like You Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,531	Desmond Morris of "The Naked Ape" and "The Human Zoo" I'd read his book "The Naked Ape" years ago and just began reading "Human Zoo". While I don't agree entirely...he really affected the way I think about humanity. He's a behavioral zoologist that decided to start looking at humans from that slant. I think he did a series of shows based on his books which sometimes are on A&E, Discovery, etc. Anyone else read/seen/heard Desmond. If so, I'd like to chat about it. Agree, disagree? I imagine he has been attacked (and possibly debunked) from many quarters, especially considering our politically correct slant these days. These books were written about thirty years ago. I find his analysis of the human condition pretty compelling and I found the forward to this book downright chilling. Here it is. "When the pressures of modern living become heavy, the harrassed city-dweller often refers to his teeming world as a concrete jungle. This is a colorful way of describing the pattern of life in a dense urban community, but it is also grossly inaccurate, as anyone who has studied a real jungle will confirm. Under normal conditions, in their natural habitats, wild animals do not mutilate themselves, **********, attack their offspring, develop stomach ulcers, become fetishists, suffer from obesity, form homosexual pairbonds or commit murder. Among human city-dwellers, needless to say, all of these things occur. Does this, then, reveal a basic difference between the human species amd other animals? At first glance it seems to do so. But this is deceptive. Other animals do behave in these ways under certain circumstances, namely when they are confined in the unnatural conditions of captivity. The zoo animal in a cage exhibits all these abnormalities that we know so well from our human companions. Clearly, then, the city is not a concrete jungle, it is a human zoo." D Morris, 1969, Human Zoo, Dell Publishing

Aug 05, 2001, 02:44 AM	#12
Gerald . Join Date: May 2000 Posts: 3,086	... Last edited by Gerald; May 06, 2008 at 10:38 AM.

Aug 05, 2001, 03:34 AM	#14
Gerald . Join Date: May 2000 Posts: 3,086	... Last edited by Gerald; May 06, 2008 at 10:38 AM.

Aug 01, 2001, 05:16 PM	#2
logan5 Registered User Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Houston Ellington, Texas, United States Posts: 284	Dolphins have been known to "copulate" with members of the same sex. And I've seen documentries about primates having sexual encounters with members of the same sex. They of course don't form pair bonds .. but then so few animals in the real world mate for life. so I guess he got that part sort of wrong. logan5

Aug 01, 2001, 10:00 PM	#4
Travis Master of disaster Join Date: May 2000 Location: Northern Virginia Posts: 707	The more "intellegent" the species, the more opportunity to make mistakes, to defy the natural order of procreation. So while there may be occasional homosexual acts among non- humans, it's a very small percentage compared to the perversity of humanity.

Aug 02, 2001, 12:47 AM	#5
NewbieX Human Like You Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: Colorado Posts: 1,531	I didn't really focus on the homosexual part of the passage, but rather that he compares modern human urban living to captivity. Interestingly, another author, Daniel Quinn makes the same assertion. It's a running theme in many books, movies, etc-that of a character feeling trapped or actually being unable to escape a certain situation. Are we trapped by ourselves, our responsibilities, our relationships, our possessions, our homes and offices, cars and trucks, etc. The first thing I thought when I read that was how so many people talk about hobbies like motorcycling, climbing, backpacking, etc. as a "getting out of the box (cage)" sort of idea. Then I thought about a number of jobs I had where there was a significant commute in the car (yikes). I guess I should finish the book before I start arguing with it or deciding he's on to something.

Aug 02, 2001, 09:15 AM	#6
Megowcoupe Balsa Flies Better! Join Date: Oct 2000 Location: Stamford, CT Posts: 5,675	I read his book "Bodywatching" which is a nice tour of human physiognomy from the feet to the head. It's a good coffee table book. I don't think that all of his ideas have been debunked, but better naturalist studies have shown a fair amount of homosexuality amongst primates in the wild. Not sure about dolphins- that may only be in controlled environments. I think the current thinking on human/animal behavior is that just about any animal behavior is also reflected in human behavior. It's not so surprising- lots of stuff is inherent and we share the same genes as the rest of the animal/plant kingdom. Trying to figure out what makes human beings "special" ends up showing that humans are part of nature as well- thus "unnatural" behavior is really hard to define. Sam Brauer Norwalk, CT

Aug 04, 2001, 06:30 PM	#7
philo Registered User Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: yiuo Posts: 4	Newbie, Hello from another newbie. I read Morriss' book on the way out of a weird cult which didn't believe in evolution. SO I being very naughty. Anyway I loved the book, it was like my first fix of intellectual heroine. I can't remember much about it now - often the way with hard drugs, I'm told - but the chapters on human sex were outstanding, I mean it. The ideas about early humans as shore-dwelling, pseudo-amphibians (that's a travesty of his idea, but nevermind) must have been overturned, but the ideas about sex still seem good to me. One of these idea was the delicate covering, skin and almost no hair, that we have being about the enjoyment of sex and touch. Can you remind me of some of his other ideas, my wife burned my copy along with many other literary treasures. Oh well. philo

Aug 04, 2001, 06:34 PM	#8
philo Registered User Join Date: Aug 2001 Location: yiuo Posts: 4	Also I remember the covering up of genitalia (clothes) being described as a way to regualte sexual agression etc, WOW that was new to me. philo

Aug 04, 2001, 07:18 PM	#9
Luxor Rotorhead Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Oly, Wa, USA Posts: 323	Philo, A little off topic hear. Did I read that your wife BURNED books? That is the behavior of an ignorent mind. And was it a cult or christianity? I answered myself, it's the same thing. On subject. Watched the discovery channel the other night and saw that there is an offshoot of chimps that copulate constantly, male-male, female-female, young and old. The same chimps, when they hit teenage age form gangs and terrorize other animals. Sound familier. These chimps were also observed in REM sleep, I guess humans are not unique after all. I am of the belief that ALL creatures are sentiant. Everything has a soul, not just man. Sometime human arrogence disgusts me. Eric S.

Aug 04, 2001, 11:01 PM	#10
Looooeeee! Heli Bouncer Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: At the Discount Clambake Posts: 3,775	Hi I think the group of chimpanzees you're referring to are the Benobo (don't know real spelling). They also face one another when mating, with a fair amount of eye contact, (normally an aggressive gesture). The natives who share the forest with these chimps hold them in high regard, say that they taught them sex... Thank you Luxor, I also concur Looee

Aug 04, 2001, 11:53 PM	#11
Luxor Rotorhead Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Oly, Wa, USA Posts: 323	Thanks LOOEE. That was the name I couldn't remember. I want everyone to know that the christianity comment was a little over the top. Sorry. I do agree with alot of what Morris has to say. We are caged by our society. Eric S.

Aug 05, 2001, 02:52 AM	#13
Luxor Rotorhead Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Oly, Wa, USA Posts: 323	Gerald, Yes, scientists think it IS unusual. that is exaclty my point. Animals DREAM. Dogs and cats have feelings as well as fish. They are just on a different level then us. I have had pets for years, and have come to realize that they matter as much as we do. I just lost my cat to cancer, she was 4 years old. I know animals can think, cause she taught heself to fetch and retrieve just like our dog does. She also had quite an understanding of human words. My brother and I gave her a little IQ test one day, by saying words and seeing if she understood them. At last count she knew about 20 words. Very interesting. The question we SHOULD be asking is, are they self aware? If we can answer that, everything else falls into place. Very interesting. Eric S. [This message has been edited by Luxor (edited 08-05-2001).] [This message has been edited by Luxor (edited 08-05-2001).]

Aug 05, 2001, 03:51 AM	#15
Luxor Rotorhead Join Date: Jun 2001 Location: Oly, Wa, USA Posts: 323	Very good points Gerald. Sounds like were on the same side of the fence hear. You've just explained it a little better then I did. And, Oh yea, dogs smile. A good friend of mine is a K9 officer, and has to hold back his own smile when his partner(K9) smiles before a chase. You tell him to smile and he gently bares his teeth, all the while, he can't stop his tail. Hilarious acctualy. Very, very, intelligent dog, almost spooky. Eric S.