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Old Mar 01, 2009, 04:26 AM
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Mr Kamikaze's Avatar
Wattle Grove NSW Australia
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ST Model/Jamara ASW28 Foamy Thermal Duration Times

Hey owners of the ST Model ASW28. Is anyone interested in an informal thermal duration type thing. It would have to be an honesty system as we are all over the place but I thought it would be a bit of fun and give us something to aim for to help improve our flying of this plane.

As of 25th May 2009 there will be three lists to accomodate this plane in standard or modded form. ( http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showp...6&postcount=91 )

For list one there is a 5 minute total run time on 2 cells standard setup. I say this as some people get them with 1000mah batts and some with 1300mah batts. I get 5 minutes from my 1000mah so that will keep it fair for those with 1000's. No mods to airframe (cosmetic not included)

For list two there is a 5 minute total run time. All other areas are free. Motor, esc, prop, battery, airframe etc.

For list three it's anything goes. No limits on run time and all other areas are free. Motor, esc, prop, battery, airframe etc.

So decide which one you want to go for and let us know how you go. Remember lists 1 & 2 are 5 minutes total motor run time, can be as many climb outs as you want, but total 5 minutes.

Oh and don't forget to time how long you are up there!

Simple.

Here's the list - Each pilots PB in descending order

List 1 - Standard

nigelsheffield.......1hr.10m
Mr Kamikaze........1hr.7m
SteveJF123.........58m
surfdabbler.........36m.35s
illegal.................32m
evo62................28m.52s
kneedrag............21m

List 2 - Modded

AGJ....................1h.16m
Hondajet.............40m.30s
nigelsheffield........31m


List 3 - Unlimited

nigelsheffield........36m
johnniea4k...........26m
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Old Mar 01, 2009, 04:32 AM
I'm torquing to you!
Mr Kamikaze's Avatar
Wattle Grove NSW Australia
Joined Nov 2006
7,446 Posts
I'll kick it off.

I use the countdown timer on my TX to time my motor run and my watch for flight time. My best so far is 38 minutes. I thought I had it beat easy this morning it was great conditions for thermalling when I first launched. I hooked 2 nice small thermals, but then 2 boomers. I was pretty excited thinking I was going to exceed 40 minutes easy, but as the 2nd big thermal died out a bit of wind picked up and that was it, my last motor run of 30 seconds resulted in nothing more than a glide back down. Total 36 minutes.

So my best so far is 38 minutes.

Come on give it a go!!!
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Old Mar 01, 2009, 04:43 AM
Nup, I got nothing!.....
evo62's Avatar
Gold Coast, Australia
Joined Jun 2007
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Cool idea! I'm in like Flynn. So to get the ground rules straight it doesn't matter how many climb outs/glides back you do as long as the total motor run time is 5 minutes? Flat land thermal style?

My best with 4 minutes or so of motor run time is 21 minutes. I guess with a extra climb (seems to be around 45 seconds or so to get to what I would say is nice and high) I might've got close to 25 minutes.

Been stinking hot here today. I'll see how I go tomorrow morning.

Clovus
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Old Mar 01, 2009, 04:45 AM
I'm torquing to you!
Mr Kamikaze's Avatar
Wattle Grove NSW Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by evo62
Cool idea! I'm in like Flynn. So to get the ground rules straight it doesn't matter how many climb outs/glides back you do as long as the total motor run time is 5 minutes? Flat land thermal style?
Yep that's it! 21 minutes is pretty good!
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Old Mar 01, 2009, 06:47 AM
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Alrighty, I'm in. I just timed the battery the other day, and yes, I got about 5:20 from the 1000mAh, so my plan was to set the TX down-timer to 5 minutes, and manually click it on/off when I activate the throttle. Perfect for this challenge.

My TX only has one timer, so I'll be timing the total flight time on my arm.

I've only rough-timed my flights so far, at just under or around 20 minutes, but I'll have to start timing them for real. I need to learn how to catch thermals. OK, officially, we're looking for thermal lift, but if I find a nice spot to ridge soar for an hour with zero motor time, I'm gonna tell you about it!

Hey, I'm in Brissy, so we're all east coast OZ so far.
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Old Mar 01, 2009, 09:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surfdabbler
Alrighty, I'm in. I just timed the battery the other day, and yes, I got about 5:20 from the 1000mAh,...
People, maybe we better change this to a 4:00 run time, maybe even 3:30. If you've got only 20 seconds or so of time before the LVC kicks in, you're not going to have a lot of time left to run the gliders' servos. Think about it, most ESCs, when they hit LVC, allow enough servo power to glide in. They are figuring you only need a minute or so of power to bring the plane in. But with a thermal glider, you could be up another 30 minutes or longer, easily draining what's left in the batteries, and your beautiful glider can become a lawn dart.

P.S - you folks in the southern hemisphere have a big advantage right now!
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Old Mar 01, 2009, 10:07 AM
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Woodland Park, CO
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Sounds like fun. I wish I had one and I'd play, too.
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Old Mar 01, 2009, 04:45 PM
Nup, I got nothing!.....
evo62's Avatar
Gold Coast, Australia
Joined Jun 2007
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Heya Dabbler,

Where do you fly? My missus works in Brisvegas on the weekends so might be able to organise a catch up.

Mr K,

What do you think about the 4min time limit? Also I was thinking, given thermals are generally wider higher up wouldn't it be more efficient to motor up, when it looks like you have lost a thermal to motor back up again instead of reaching the ground, and so forth? This would result in shorter motor run times to get back to good thermalling altitude and probably longer flying times.

Maybe there should be a new rule the glider has to land after each motor run and glide back down?

Anyway, I'm off early before work to see what I can do. Warm and light cloud cover. If I braved the noon heat I reckon I could do alright (and cultivate a few melanoma's too)

Clovus
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Old Mar 01, 2009, 05:57 PM
I'm torquing to you!
Mr Kamikaze's Avatar
Wattle Grove NSW Australia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angelo
People, maybe we better change this to a 4:00 run time, maybe even 3:30. If you've got only 20 seconds or so of time before the LVC kicks in, you're not going to have a lot of time left to run the gliders' servos. Think about it, most ESCs, when they hit LVC, allow enough servo power to glide in. They are figuring you only need a minute or so of power to bring the plane in. But with a thermal glider, you could be up another 30 minutes or longer, easily draining what's left in the batteries, and your beautiful glider can become a lawn dart.

P.S - you folks in the southern hemisphere have a big advantage right now!
I've run the 1000mah for 6 minutes with no cut off. But I had to put back in 980mah (approx). I prefer not to run my batteries that close to their max duration as I believe it shortens their life. The LVC when it comes only cuts power to the motor and leaves the servos operating, well that's how it's worked on my other electrics, so all should be good.

Regarding landing after each run, I think that dilutes the idea. Run the motor when you want how you want but only for a total of 5 minutes.
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Old Mar 01, 2009, 11:22 PM
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Today was looking nice, soft thermal weather. Overall a bit hazy, but definite thermal action. I went down to the park, and there was actually a pretty constant breeze there which I wasn't expecting. Anyway, I waited for a lull, and with my 5 minute timer set to go, off I went .... and the final flight time was...

13 minutes! That's got to be my worst time so far! I definitely caught some thermals in there, but didn't know how to stay in them, or how tight to turn. The glider was buffeted around, and I could see it indicating lift, but with all the buffeting, I kept losing altitude just recovering myself from being blown around, and apart from that, I think in the end I spent more time in sink than lift.

Oh well, at least I have somewhere to start from. I've put in 30% rudder mix for next time too. I could definitely see the delayed turns, so I'll see if that improves the turning next time.

Another question - what's a flat turn? Does this mean to turn keeping the wings more flat, so more rudder, less bank, or does it mean to turn without losing altitude?
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Old Mar 02, 2009, 12:12 AM
I'm torquing to you!
Mr Kamikaze's Avatar
Wattle Grove NSW Australia
Joined Nov 2006
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Quote:
Originally Posted by surfdabbler
Another question - what's a flat turn? Does this mean to turn keeping the wings more flat, so more rudder, less bank, or does it mean to turn without losing altitude?
Yes that's it. As a plane banks it loses vertical lift as the wings tip over away from the horizontal. Also in a thermal a lot of lift would be pushing up under the wings. So the flatter you keep the wings the better you are.
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Old Mar 02, 2009, 02:03 AM
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evo62's Avatar
Gold Coast, Australia
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I've noticed poorer flight times in windy conditions too, even in really strong winds (16-18knots on the wind meter). Somehow I thought the wind would help hold the glider up if I got it directly facing into the breeze - all that happens is a slow vertical descent until you get close to the ground when some sort of 'freaky EPO magnetic attraction to the ground' happens and the nose drops dramatically.

It's probably not quite as windy closer to the ground that causes it, but I like my other hypothesis better.

I got 22 minutes today with 4.23 motor run time, so total glide time 17.36.

Clovus
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Old Mar 02, 2009, 05:34 AM
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Mr Kamikaze's Avatar
Wattle Grove NSW Australia
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You upped it by a minute to 22. You should have gone the extra 30 odd seconds for another climb and taken your run time to 5 minutes and you would have added 4 or 5 minutes to the total easy!

Wind just blows the thermals away. They need fairly stable air to build and maintain. From what I know the best days are warm, little to no wind, and patchy cumulus (puffy) cloud cover.

Here's a tip. If you stand in a big field/open area on a day like described above, you may feel light breezes occaisionally around you every few minutes. These breezes will be from different directions. These are probably feeders into a thermal. As the thermal rises the air around moves toward it, kind of getting sucked in and up, into the thermal. If you feel one of these and turn so it is at your back, there is good chance you are looking straight at a thermal (though obviously you can't see it) so if you can fly/glide to that area you might find it.
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Old Mar 02, 2009, 06:12 AM
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How to thermal with wind: Thermals are just rising air, as such they travel with the wind on average exactly the speed of the wind. Facing into the wind does nothing to keep the plane up as the plane cares nothing for groundspeed, it just think's it's flying like normal. If you hit a thermal in strong wind it's going to be going down wind, so when you start turning your glider will ideally travel down-wind at the same speed as the thermal, you'll be flying diagonally but you'll be staying in the thermal whereas if you try to circle in the same place you'll miss the thermal and circle in the sink that follows it.

As for knowing how much to turn when in a thermal it's a skill that you practice but normally when I go gliding I do this:

- Fly until I detect lift (glider turns un-commanded, wings rock or jinks up, a well trimmed glider will do these).
- Notice the direction of the turn or wing rock, the thermal will push you away from it so you want to turn in opposite to that to get a good circle going.
- Delay a bit before turning, it's likely you hit somewhere near the front of the thermal and if you want to find the core faster you're better delaying and turning just past the middle.
- Start at a constant bank, say a 20m diameter circle, if you're going up slowly but evenly try widening the turn to get more out of it. If you notice you're going up in some parts of the turn and down in others try tightening up.

All thermals are different but they tend to be similar to each other on the same days, some days they're all broad and cover half the sky so you just do lazy big circles, some days they're tight and hard like tornadoes, I've circled my DLG at 60 degrees bank and gone up before (and had it almost roll 90 degrees when flying past such a tight thermal).
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Old Mar 02, 2009, 04:47 PM
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Gold Coast, Australia
Joined Jun 2007
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Great info guys. But, a wing generated lift by airflowing over it, right? So, if the wind speed was just at the exact velocity to generate enough lift for the plane to support itself, shouldn't the plane stay in one place?


Mr K,

I thought about going for another run, but my shirt was saturated from sweat (not a good look for a business shirt) and I was pushing the limits to get to work on time.
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