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Old Jul 18, 2014, 12:13 AM
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Markran's Avatar
United States, CA, Sacramento
Joined Aug 2011
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New breakthroughs in motor design?

I'm curious what new breakthroughs in motor design or materials are on the horizon. We hear from time to time about new lab discoveries in battery chemistry or materials. Are there similar advances happening in motors (or power systems generally) which may yield noticeable improvements in performance or efficiency for the hobby?

I don't know much about motor theory but I'd love to understand more about how science and technology are improving what we'll be using in the future. Is it more the case that power systems are so mature that significant advances are rare or is the march of progress rapid?

I'd also be interested in what you feel are the most significant breakthroughs in recent history. This would put some context around how far we've recently come to get to where we are.
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Old Jul 18, 2014, 12:22 AM
Condescending Pedant
Joined Aug 2013
1,008 Posts
About 20 years ago, I bought a "micro" servo. I thought that they would never be able to make them any smaller. Now I can buy four servos that would almost fit in the same volume together. Technology will always be advancing, thankfully. There are few "breakthroughs" but a lot of incremental advances.
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Old Aug 06, 2014, 07:37 AM
Proud to eat Kraut ;-)
Julez's Avatar
Germany
Joined Dec 2003
5,373 Posts
You can get quite an achievement by winding motors properly. I routinely get 30% more copper in Scorpion stators I wind myself compared to the stock windings.

But once we arrive at the upper 80% in efficiency, there is not much that can be done. Stronger magnets and a stator material that does not saturate magnetically as soon as iron would have to be found, and I see nothing in this regard.
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Old Aug 10, 2014, 04:57 PM
JustFlying
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Joined Dec 2005
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"30% more copper in Scorpion stators "

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Old Aug 10, 2014, 05:20 PM
homo ludens modellisticus
Ron van Sommeren's Avatar
The Netherlands, GE, Nijmegen
Joined Feb 2001
10,923 Posts

Nick Maxwell Edition Scorpion before rewinding

Several Scorpion, Kontronik rewinds in this thread, even an improved Nick Maxwell Edition Scorpion

translate...www.modelbouwforum.nl/forums/model-elektronica/126944-scorpion-hk3026-hk4225-hk4020-hk4025-hk4035-buitenloper-wikkelen-52.html%23post3322335

CONTENTS
Align
Align 600MX -YY 6 + 8 1.06mm, 488Kv
Align 700MX -YY 7 + 7 1.18mm, 480Kv
Align 700MX -YY 6 + 7 1.25mm, 510Kv
Align 700MX -YY 6 + 6 1.32mm, 554Kv
Align 750MX -YY 5 + 6 1.6mm, 530Kv
Align 750MX -YY 6 + 9 1.4mm, 390Kv
Align 800MX -YY 6 + 6 1.4mm, 540Kv

Kontronik
Pyro 600 -YY 4 + 4 1.18mm, 1234Kv
Pyro 650 -YY 7 + 5 1.18mm, 850Kv
Pyro 700 -YY 6 + 7 1.25mm, 504Kv
Pyro 700 -YY 7 + 8 1.18mm, 440Kv
Pyro 750 D 5 + 4 1.6mm, 528Kv
Pyro 750 D 5 + 4 1.4mm, 516Kv
Pyro 800 -Y 5 + 5 1.6mm, 282Kv
Pyro 800 -YY 9 + 6 1.32mm, 375Kv
Pyro 800 -YY 8 + 6 1.4mm, 414Kv
Pyro 850 -YY 5 + 5 1.6mm, 470Kv

Scorpion
HK-2221 -YYY 16turns 0.8mm, 3750Kv
HK-3026 -YY 4 + 5 1.2mm, 1270Kv
HK-4020 -DD 5 + 6 1.5mm, 1980Kv
HK-4020 -YY 6 + 5 1.32mm, 1050Kv
HK-4020 -YY 7 + 7 1.32mm, 893Kv
S-4020 -DD LRK 14turns 1.4mm, 1010Kv
S-4020 -DD 7 + 7 1.4mm, 1030Kv
S-4025 -Y 5 + 5 1.5mm, 337Kv
HK-4025 -YY 4 + 5 1.6mm, 1080Kv and 1111Kv
HK-4025 -YY 8 + 10 1.18mm, 563Kv
HKIII-4025 -YY 4 + 3 1.8mm, 1134Kv
HK-4035 V2 -YY 4 + 5 1.6mm, 800Kv
HK-4035 V2 -YY 5 + 6 1.5mm, kv 528Kv
HKIII-4035 -YY 5 + 6 1.4mm, 510Kv
HKIII-4035 -YY 5 + 6 1.6mm, 500KV
HK-4225 -YY 5 + 6 1.5mm, 630Kv
HK-4225 -YY 6 + 9 1.18mm, 470Kv
HK-4225 -YY 6 + 7 1.32mm, 530Kv
HK-4225 -YY 6 + 7 1.4mm, 540Kv
HK-4235 Nick Maxwell Edition -YY 10turns 1.6mm, ~ 500KV
HK-4525 -YY 5 + 7 1.5mm, 495Kv
HK-4525 -YY 6 + 5 1.4mm, 549Kv
HK-4525 -YY 6 + 5 1.5mm, 547Kv
HK-4525 -YY 6 + 6 1.4mm, 516Kv
HK-4530 -YY 5 + 5 1.5mm, 495Kv
HK-4530 -YY 7 + 8 1.32mm, 332Kv
HK-4530 -YY 5 + 6 1.4mm, 448Kv
HK-5020 -YY 8 + 11 1.25mm, 442Kv
HK-5020 -YY 9 + 8 1.32mm, 498Kv
HK-5035 -YY 6 + 6 1.7mm, 390Kv
HK-5035 -YY 7 + 5 1.7mm, 400kV
HK-5035 -YY 6 + 5 1.8mm, 443Kv
HK-5035 600Kv -COMING-

Quantum
Quantum 4120 -YY 5 + 5 1.5mm, 1233Kv
Quantum 4530 -YY 6 + 5 1.32mm, 419Kv
Quantum 4530 -YY 4 + 5 1.4mm, 518Kv

Noname
C05m -Y 5 + 5 0.29mm, ~


Nick Maxwell Edition Scorpion after rewinding
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Last edited by Ron van Sommeren; Aug 10, 2014 at 05:33 PM.
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Old Aug 10, 2014, 10:15 PM
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Fenton,MO USA
Joined Aug 2005
1,273 Posts
Those are pretty. Wish I had one.
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Old Aug 11, 2014, 03:22 AM
Registered User
Germany, BY, Gräfelfing
Joined Jan 2003
441 Posts
Hi,
here in Starnberg /Germany the company , Compound Disk Drives , start with the new motordesign patent from profesort Reiner Marquardt . http://compounddiskdrives.com/en/ http://www.faqs.org/patents/imgfull/20110057532_04
This is new as it is a transversal flux technologie motor with a rotor that has no iron ,only magnets all hold in a thin carbon fiber disk . As the flux is on both side of the disk equal both side delifer the force . The stator with the winding is made by powderiron technology holding the copper coil .For a 50 kw engine it has only two turn of coppertube that has inside flowing cooling fluid . Franz Weigerber , f3b worldcampion , has a modelsize motor . His company Carbonvertrieb , isproducing the carbon parts of this motor. See the patent site how the motor is designed . The big thing of this motor is the very high switching esc using skineffect and other . This is a reason for modelbuilder not to build such engine as there is no esc on the market that will do the job . The high powerdensity comes from the big sqare centimeters of the disk and the very thin all over design . The force of each sqare centimeter is low with only 2 newton but tousand ants pushing together will result on high torque density.
http://www.faqs.org/patents/app/20110057532 .
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Old Aug 11, 2014, 07:02 PM
Registered User
United States, WA, Woodinville
Joined May 2014
1,081 Posts
I think we will see mostly incremental improvements and the occasional new form factor. Electric motors have offered excellent efficiency for decades, in some cases better than 90%. Even the fancy brushless motors we use are not new, they were used in hard drive spindles at least as far back as the early 80s. What has improved greatly are the electronics used to drive them. Rare earth magnets have allowed much smaller motors that produce a lot more power but the basic design has not really changed. Unless someone discovers more powerful magnets or room temperature superconductors I don't see a lot of new development here.

Batteries are where there's room for improvement. Modern LiPos are revolutionary compared to previous options but they still can't come close to the energy density of fossil fuels.
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Old Aug 13, 2014, 10:49 PM
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Joined Jul 2014
14 Posts
Switched reluctance motors are an old technology but modern electronics have made them feasible again. They are being looked at because they don't require rare earth magnets and are approaching the efficiency of brushless motors. I haven't seen a lot of talk in the RC world yet but in larger motors they are being taken very seriously to meet new efficiency requirements.
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Old Aug 14, 2014, 01:33 AM
JustFlying
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Joined Dec 2005
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I don't think the SRM will come close to a hobby brushless motor with power density.
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Old Aug 15, 2014, 06:01 PM
Registered User
United States, NC, Durham
Joined Apr 2011
288 Posts
Interesting thread. Ive been told by Lisa Talia at nue that I could recieve a 1530 raw stack. Considering winding it for polyphase operation. Im thinking 6 phase with full ceramics and 200c wire. Any other ideas on getting the most from whats already available today?Curious as to terminating a lap winding scheme in a .5 wind. Maybe SDST wiring scheme?

X
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Old Aug 16, 2014, 12:18 AM
JustFlying
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Joined Dec 2005
2,437 Posts
Like the old saying for IC "There is no replacement for displacement". If you need more power, use a bigger motor. That little extra weight gives you not only more power but at better efficiency as well.
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