SMALL - SMALL - Telemetry SMALL - Radio
Thread Tools
Old Mar 23, 2014, 09:06 PM
Registered User
aglenn's Avatar
Joined Aug 2004
192 Posts
Just got home from the event. Must say one of the best run indoor events I have ever been able to attend. Big thanks to the crew that put on the event along with Dave Lockhart and Jon Lowe for all the hard work they did. Congrats to the new team. They will represent the USA very well next year. Also thank you to Ben Batts for allowing me to use his model today. Can't thank him enough for that.
aglenn is offline Find More Posts by aglenn
Reply With Quote
Sign up now
to remove ads between posts
Old Mar 23, 2014, 10:47 PM
"Free" in Christ! #F3P
Free's Avatar
United States, CA, SF
Joined Jan 2012
995 Posts
I agree! A beautifully run event!! I had so much fun!! Thank you to all the pilots who helped me through my first competition. I especially want to thank Joe and Ben, you guys were(and are) great! But almost all the pilots helped in one way or another, thank you!
Congratulations to the team!! I am proud of our team and wish them the best of luck next year in Poland!
Seth, Joe was flying an Excel V1. (I am disappointed you couldn't make it)

Free is online now Find More Posts by Free
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 24, 2014, 03:41 AM
F3A Team Finland
Finnspeed's Avatar
Järvenpää, Finland
Joined Nov 2005
971 Posts
Are there any videos available and/or full results?

Congrats to the team! It will be very interesting to see how they do against our guys (meaning Finland).
Finnspeed is offline Find More Posts by Finnspeed
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 24, 2014, 03:42 AM
Registered User
Windsor, Canada
Joined Sep 2003
154 Posts

Any videos or pics ?
philfun is offline Find More Posts by philfun
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 24, 2014, 06:53 AM
"Free" in Christ! #F3P
Free's Avatar
United States, CA, SF
Joined Jan 2012
995 Posts
I have videos of my flights, but I'm not sure who would enjoy those.
I'll try to upload them this next week.

Free is online now Find More Posts by Free
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 24, 2014, 06:54 AM
"Free" in Christ! #F3P
Free's Avatar
United States, CA, SF
Joined Jan 2012
995 Posts
I've also got pics of almost all the planes while they are on the tables. I'll try to upload those this next week too.

Free is online now Find More Posts by Free
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 24, 2014, 07:34 AM
Registered User
rkane's Avatar
Joined Mar 2000
109 Posts
I had a lot of fun doing the scoring. I huge thank you to Linda Jesky, she is the master at entering scores. She had the scores entered, verified, and tear sheets ready by the time the pilots took the batteries out of their planes and walked over to the scoring table. Thanks also to Scott McNickle, Matt Finley, and other D4 guys who helped out.

Special thanks also to Scott Smith for his support during the weekend.
rkane is offline Find More Posts by rkane
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 24, 2014, 09:10 AM
Registered User
Northern Alabama, USA
Joined Apr 2003
684 Posts
The CD's view

This is going to be a long post, so bear with me! Official results are at the bottom of the page.

First of all I want to apologize for personally failing to acknowledge publically at the event, one of the chief organizers, Dave Lockhart. If it wasn't for Dave, this event would have been a lot more difficult to achieve, and probably wouldn't have come off at all. Dave was the driving force behind getting this event going, arranged for the venue, got sponsors, used his contacts to provide badly needed services, and provided most of the background knowledge of F3P in order for our contest management team to put this event together. Again, Dave, I'm very sorry.

In addition, I want to thank, Dave Mathewson of AMA whose personal involvement got us to where we needed to be officially, Gary Fitch, AMA Executive VP who agreed to be the Jury head, Bob Kane on scoring, Linda Jesky on registration and scoring, Tim Jesky as Flight line Czar, my co-CD, John Konneker who did anything I asked without hesitation and provided much needed pre-event site reconnasaince, Devin McGrath for procuring the coroplast runway, RJ Gritter for making the beautiful acrylic trophies, and Rex Lesher for chairing the AMA Team Selection Committee, and the rest of the TSC. Also, Tony Husak, who ran the entire NEF event, was gracious in allowing the Team Trials to be part of his event. our flying area was essentially free of any errant airplanes the entire weekend, thanks to Tony, and not one flight had to be redone because of flight area interference. EDIT: And Scott Smith, whose scoring program we used. He was great at helping Bob Kane both in advance of this event, and doing some hand holding over the phone during the event.

In addition, Bob Brown, AMA President, presented trophies, and was a driving force in getting this event going. Jim Quinn took official AMA photos for Model Aviation and the AMA website. Thanks to you both.

I also want to thank Joe Lachowski, Mark Radcliff, and Dave Mathewson , non-entrants who spent many long rounds in the judges chair.

If you don't think this event is important to AMA, just take a look. The President, Executive Vice President, 2 District VPs, and the Executive Director were all heavily involved in this event.

And the participants. Wow, talk about a group of cooperative flyers. They were ready, they listened, they were where they needed to be, they judged without complaint, they made my life easy. No protests!

Our team is great. RJ Gritter, Devin McGrath, Ryan Clark, and Joseph Szczur as our Jr. team member, on this weekend, were clearly the best of the best. They will represent the US well in Poland next year at the F3P World Championships. AC Glenn will be our reserve member in case one of our other team members is unable to participate.

The proceeds from the overall NEF event goes to cancer research. We were proud to contribute $5 of each entry fee to NEF for this noble cause.

Observations, in no particular order:

Judging this event is similar to judging F3A but also very different in many aspects. First of all, everything is much closer, so you can see more. However, it is also at much lower altitude for much of the sequence, and pilots and helpers can block clear sight lines for portions of the maneuvers. There appears to be no way to place judges that every judge can see every portion of every maneuver. In addition, there is a lot of fixed "clutter" in the background, building structure, lights, ceilings, scaffolds, nets, etc. There are obvious maneuver differences, such as torque rolls being included. Some of the maneuvers are extraordinarily complicated such as the "cubic top-hat" in the F sequence, with lots of possible downgrades, to include two torque rolls. Judging F3P was a learning experience for every judge, regardless of how much judging they had done in other disciplines. Thanks to Joseph Szczur and Ben Batts for performing warm up flights for the F judges. Joseph made an error in one of the maneuvers that should have zeroed the maneuver; not all the judges caught it,but Don Szczur did! Warm up flights were essential.

Difference in equipment also made a big difference. Devin and RJ's planes were 67 and 69 grams RTF, respectively (I think, I know they will correct me if I got it backwards!). Dave Lockhart's and Ryan's planes were also light, but not quite as light as Devin's and RJ's. Every aspect of their custom built airplanes were designed from scratch to be stiff and light. Contra motor/gearbox combinations that cost upwards of $300. Carbon framed and mylar cover props. Just extraordinary. Dave's airplane, while light, was a lightened commercial plane, taking weight out is much harder than not putting it in in the first place. Frankly, there is no stock commercially available airplane that would be remotely competitive at this level of flying. The light weight paid off. Flying speeds were extraordinarily slow for Devin and RJ, allowing them more time in downlines. It was very clear to those of us who judged that some flyers were hindered by equipment. Flying skill could overcome some things, but the lightest aircraft equipped with contras were at a distinct advantage. The constant slow speed also affects the emphasis in FAI on smooth and graceful.

While the top flyers flew well, most of the judges observed a few things that the team will need to work on. Radii in maneuvers not matching the first radii. This was evident many times. Dave did the best job at that. Centering, particularly of torque rolls in up lines. Wings not level. Roll rates not matching everywhere. I hope our team gets together before the WC to do extensive peer critiquing to fix these observations. In spite of these observations, I gave out a few 10's and I know other judges did also.

The one minute start time included in the 5 minute flight time almost caught one flyer out during the prelims. You don't have time to dawdle. The F sequence is long, so you don't want to waste any time.

Having the ability to practice in a space roughly the same size as the contest venue would help a lot. Every indoor site is different. Some have higher ceilings than others.

Some of the FAI rules are vague. If an airplane touches a wall, ground or ceiling, that maneuver gets a zero. However, the venue we were in had two boundaries that were flags near ground level. There are no rules governing crossing invisible lines in F3P. We had to allow those to go without penalty. The FAI rules are also very convoluted to read. This section refers you to that section, and nothing seems to be in any logical order. By contrast, our AMA rule book is a breeze!

There are no current rules that either I or Gary Fitch could find that address a competitor flying another competitors airplane, except in world level competition where country teams have been defined. This may have been different in years past, but that is where the current rules stand. This appears to also be true for F3A.

Right now, our feeder classes for F3P, Sportsman and Intermediate, do not have any judged turnaround maneuvers. Next years Canadian intermediate class does, and we ought to probably adopt that. The jump from intermediate to the F3P P sequence is huge at the moment.

In summary, I could not have dreamed a better event. I was always waiting for a shoe to drop, as things seemed to be running too smoothly.

My thanks again to everyone involved. If I left someone out, I'm very sorry, as it is purely unintentional.

Jon Lowe
Contest Director
jonlowe is offline Find More Posts by jonlowe
Last edited by jonlowe; Mar 24, 2014 at 01:35 PM.
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 24, 2014, 03:14 PM
Registered User
themudduck's Avatar
Joined Oct 2006
375 Posts

I shared a few videos on the other thread, on the main page's NEF thread for F3P

Here is the link. Lots of pictures posted also!

Congratulations to the winners! I'm really glad that your event went so well. Someone told me afterwards that my B17 strayed into your area at least once, I sincerely apologize for the error and I'm grateful it didn't interfere with the competition! BTW - my B17 was hit on the left inboard engine just as it went by your area one time... I broke a prop blade and 90% of the valve pushrods... it nearly shook the model apart before I could shut that motor down - I assume that was due to enemy AA !! Was that accidental or did you do that on purpose?? LOL

- Marc.
themudduck is offline Find More Posts by themudduck
Last edited by themudduck; Mar 24, 2014 at 03:24 PM.
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 28, 2014, 03:36 PM
Registered User
United States, WA, North Bend
Joined Dec 2002
115 Posts
Congratulations to RJ Gritter, Devin McGrath, Ryan Clark, and Joseph Szczur.
A great team!

RJ, How about telling us about that airplane and especially about those props you used?

Vince Caluori is offline Find More Posts by Vince Caluori
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 28, 2014, 07:43 PM
I don't want to "Switch Now"
pmackenzie's Avatar
Toronto (Don Mills), Canada
Joined Dec 2002
17,662 Posts
Devin and RJ were both flying foam/mylar versions of their Anubis design.
The props are "standard" with the new lighter Kimmo contra system.

AUW was 69-70 grams. (I think Devin was 1 gram lighter than RJ )
pmackenzie is online now Find More Posts by pmackenzie
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 24, 2015, 01:25 PM
Registered User
United States, NJ, Sparta Township
Joined Mar 2007
1,028 Posts
Originally Posted by DaveL322 View Post
Attached PDF includes aresti type drawings and written descriptions for the AP-15 sequence for the F3P class. YouTube link is for video by Paul Hepworth of one of my AP-15 flights at the 2013 ECC F3P contest.


Is this a special plane? I love the slow flying. Are these planes available as a kit or as RTF? What is it? Cool! Ron
darticus is offline Find More Posts by darticus
Reply With Quote
Old Mar 24, 2015, 09:40 PM
Team JR
DaveL322's Avatar
Medford, NJ
Joined Jan 2004
330 Posts
Hi Ron,

The plane in the video is a Spies, from DonatasDesign. That kit with some careful equipment selection can be built at 100 grams...maybe a little lighter. The one in the video was additionally lightened to 88 grams (built in 2013), and the one I built in 2014 was even lighter at 72 grams. At the recent World Championships, similar planes were in the 55 - 60 gram range.

The Spies is no longer in production, but you may find some kits around from people that never got around to building them. You can check around in the RCG Indoor pattern / F3P forum for various designs intended for F3P pattern. There are some produced in the US - Fancy Foam Anubis and SB Models Excel are two I have flown, and some European kits like the Elanor (AlanFlyRC) and Trivia (GB Models).


DaveL322 is offline Find More Posts by DaveL322
Reply With Quote

Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Category Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Discussion 2014 NEF - NE Ohio Indoor Electric Festival themudduck NEF - NE Ohio Indoor Electric Festival 191 May 01, 2014 02:10 PM
Discussion TINY F3P Contest by Fancy Foam March 7th-8th 2014 jhicks Indoor Pattern/F3P 23 Apr 02, 2014 10:14 PM
Discussion "Stacks on" Akron, in a 3D Fashion (informal gathering in Akron, OH?) theKM Electric Flight Events 2133 Apr 26, 2010 09:55 AM