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Old Nov 10, 2014, 01:08 AM
Jim C Patrick
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Attacks against Dave Thornburg

On another thread someone mentioned that Dave Thornburg’s "Old Buzzards Soaring Book" is not to be found anymore, they saw a single copy going for $120. After looking up to see what was going on, there are two issues here.

Deliberate damage
Someone –supposedly someone in the soaring community—filed a ‘report’ against Dave and his book on a site called the Ripoff Report. Besides the site actually being a quasi-legal extortion racket, the ‘report’ was not about a ripoff such as no delivery, received damaged goods, double-charged, etc, etc. Lookup RCM Plans for examples of real ripoffs.

Instead the complaint was that Dave‘s book wasn’t as good as the complainer thought it should be. Basically, it was a bad book review; a scathing review. Another comment piled on that he read the book and still couldn’t fly, another added that Thornburg’s book wasn’t as complete as Naton’s DVD’s, etc.

The problem is that many of the ‘comments’ are from paid commenters –the work at home scam—who scour the internet to steal, scrape and manufacture these ‘comments’. They have a 'pastor' condemning to hell anyone who agrees or likes the book. Two ‘authors’ contradict themselves in different posts, and another incoherently challenges anyone to fly against him in a ‘sink cycle’. They scraped a small article by Gordon Buckland and posted it. To really confuse things there are a couple of real comments as well. It is a mess, and as the newspaper article verifies (Forbes has a similar article about the Ripoff Report site as well) once a complaint is posted it will never come down unless you pay thousands of dollars.

Collateral damage
With the book not available, or extremely costly, the ‘solution’ someone here on RCGoups offered was to scan it to PDF and send it to whoever wanted a copy. Perhaps it’s just me, but Dave Thornburg is one of the Founding Fathers of modern soaring and after his online reputation is trashed, stealing his (copyrighted) work seems downright low.

There always seems to be controversy over copyrights, and I feel of two minds about the issue. With plans the original designer gets a one-time fee and nothing thereafter. Nor do I personally agree with US law on copyright for 70+ years after the authors’ death, put in to benefit the Disney corporation. But Thornburg’s right to this is unmistakable both legally and ethically. It’s his book, he wrote it, he publishes it, and he is still alive. It is clearly his right –for better or worse—to sell or not.

Solutions?
I don't have any good ones. Bombing the RR site with positive comments will just get them deleted or negated by paid sock puppets; they thrive on controversy and it gets them 'click money'. Maybe someone who knows Dave can find out how he feels about all this or offer their opinions.
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Old Nov 10, 2014, 07:00 AM
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Of what I know about DT, I doubt he would give a rats behind about it, but who knows. It is kind of interesting how they compare two diametrically opposed styles of knowledge dissemination as you pointed out between Dave's book and Paul's DVD's.

I still remember the first time I read the OBSB, that first chapter had me laughing out loud, and I learned most of the important lessons to flying soaing competitions from those chapters. To bad it is being attached like this cause to me, it is nearly a bible for our hobby.

Marc
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Old Nov 10, 2014, 07:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by R.M. Gellart View Post
...compare two diametrically opposed styles of knowledge dissemination as you pointed out between Dave's book and Paul's DVD's...
I don't quite see how those methods are 'diametrically opposed'. Why not scan the book into pdf and sell it online as a downloadable copy, proceedings going directly to Dave? Just like Paul is doing with his videos. What am I missing here?
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Old Nov 10, 2014, 09:02 AM
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Written word vs a DVD, as far as making it a .pdf file, as long as Dave is alive, it lies in his hands.

Marc
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Old Nov 10, 2014, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by R.M. Gellart View Post
...as far as making it a .pdf file, as long as Dave is alive, it lies in his hands...
My point exactly - revenue for him, valuable info for the masses who have trouble finding the original book. Win-win, so why not do it? Would someone who has Dave's contact info suggest this to him, please?
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Old Nov 10, 2014, 10:30 AM
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funnily enough i have seen copies of this book going for crazy money in the UK. I have been keen to pick up a copy but the prices are crazy.

I would be all for purchasing an ebook format/republished book in print or even an updated version in either format. would be great if someone made it happen.
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Old Nov 10, 2014, 10:57 AM
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Jkettu, no opinion other than respect Davr's work in doing it.

Marc
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Old Nov 10, 2014, 11:06 AM
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Copyright

Marc:
It is better than that!
Copyright now extends to life of author PLUS 75 years!
cheers
Jim


Quote:
Originally Posted by R.M. Gellart View Post
Written word vs a DVD, as far as making it a .pdf file, as long as Dave is alive, it lies in his hands.

Marc
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Old Nov 10, 2014, 12:27 PM
Kurt Zimmerman ≡LSF 4461≡
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I did a little research on this guy Pastor Keith White. It appears that he is a troublemaker and goes around making false accusations against a variety of authors. It also appears that Pastor Keith White is a self-proclaimed expert in RC Soaring which I find rather interesting because none of my searches found him with any credible credentials.

So it appears Pastor Keith White is out to make a buck and bashing authors is his playground.

Kurt
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Old Nov 10, 2014, 01:26 PM
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If he's the same guy I think he is, he's been on RCG a few times under a few handles and kicked off each time. He lives around DFW and tries to DS slopers in thermals and tells everyone else how wrong and stupid they are...

I was never a friend of DT, but I did respect his design work and his written knowledge. This Keith guy... If I'm right about his identity, he's as rabid as Highstarter... just in a different direction. There's a good field that no one goes to for fear of running into him...
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Old Nov 10, 2014, 01:32 PM
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If I remember correctly, he is from Arlington. And Jack is correct, he is a jackwagon.

Marc
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Old Nov 10, 2014, 01:33 PM
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Why does everyone take my name in vain???
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Old Nov 10, 2014, 01:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by schrederman View Post
If he's the same guy I think he is, he's been on RCG a few times under a few handles and kicked off each time. He lives around DFW and tries to DS slopers in thermals and tells everyone else how wrong and stupid they are...

I was never a friend of DT, but I did respect his design work and his written knowledge. This Keith guy... If I'm right about his identity, he's as rabid as Highstarter... just in a different direction. There's a good field that no one goes to for fear of running into him...
Oh, not that guy again!
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Old Nov 10, 2014, 01:54 PM
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The Old Buzzard's Book used to be sold by various distributors, and also directly by Dave himself. Does the book being unavailable mean that you can't find the book at the distributors, and don't know that the book is available direct? Or, does it mean that there are no new copies of the book even from Dave himself?

After all if you do a search for the book you get links to the distributors. The direct sales information is printed in the book, if you don't already have a copy of the book, you don't have the order information.
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Old Nov 10, 2014, 02:05 PM
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Dave's local. I'll see if he can be contacted.
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