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Old Oct 10, 2012, 01:25 PM
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Some religions don't believe in blood transfusions? Who?-Elmo? We are speaking about CATHOLICS here. I'm no Catholic, but you know as well as I do the vadility of their reputation and size. Birth control is a big deal, and frankly having sex with people you won't marry is a problem by itself and you know this..........so don't pretend that it's okay to say that religions don't matter. If you don't think it's a problem, then consider your daughter or wife screwing around with their teacher......humm not such a happy picture anymore that you are painting? :rolleyes

It's boring to be repetitive, but I'll say it again. Government (tax-payers) paying for sex toys, sex control and other things is socialism, unamerican, against the constitution and something that is illegal for a reason-even under Obamacare. If private insurance companies want to pay for your birth control or sex toys, that is fine. It is just a problem if tax payers (me) pay for it, or if government forces insurance companies to pay for unrelated things. In fact it is even unamerican (maybe not unsocialistic-things sure are working out in Italy and Greece-NOT) for me to be paying for your health care. America is #1 not because of government, but because of private people making great things. People do a better job, not government. If you don't believe that, look at every example where USA dominates.

Also, you have an incredible amount of spin. Birth control does nothing for STDs. Go ask Magic Johnson that one. They have nothing to do with hormone imbalances. Other drugs treat that. Although I do not practice, I went to medical school at an inexpensive college in NYC.
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Old Oct 10, 2012, 01:46 PM
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Originally Posted by MtnGoat View Post
It's not popular because it doesn't work. The argument you present is an abuse of the word solution/solve. Not a single nation on Earth or in human history has solved these problems.

Subsidy doesn't solve them, it hides them. Note your claim crime would become rampant without the subsidies.

Further, it exacerbates them because those receiving said subsidies absorb this tacit admission of State responsibilty for their lives as a basis for ever more subsidy. Everyone who is a net payer becomes nothing but a tool for trying to do away with the outcome of poor decision making and irrational values.

It does not work to remove the penalties the universe places on actions inconsistent with reality by forcing those making proper decisions consistent with the real world to allow those who do not, to escape reality and the constraints it places on the outcomes of human choices.

Doing so creates more strife not less as all struggle for political control of personal choices. It creates more costs not less as the innate penalties of poor decision making are removed. What do you get when you subsidize behavior? MORE of it, not less.
You take away uneducated people's way of life all at once and see what it gets you. It's like I said, desperate people will do desperate things. I'm not saying it's right. It is in fact wrong but it's also reality. We live in the real world, not one in some story book. I'm all for removing the huge problem of so many people living on assistance. I just think the solution will take years of re-learning and weaning people off of these systems and furthermore it's going to take a commitment from those of us who know better to guide them through the process. If we don't take it on that way, I believe there will be huge amount of suffering and crime will rise. Will society in general recover from that? Maybe. Will it recover in our lifetime? I dont knowl. People's lives are what they are and they are not likely to change. Our real hope is to reach the children now and show them a better way and if we are lucky in our very old age or maybe during the lives of our children, the problem will largely be solved but as you state, never completely solved. There will always be some people that will never do things the right way but the percentage we have living that way now is ridiculous. That percentage can be lowered significantly, IMHO. Too may kids are born into poverty with no clue that there is a better way. They are victims of our society and helping them eventually helps ourselves. It cant just be free handouts because you're right. That breeds more problems. We want more contributors and fewer takers. Just throwing up your arms and saying that problem can never be solved is a cop out so we don't have to even try to make anything better. Personally, I like to think we're better than that.
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Old Oct 10, 2012, 01:57 PM
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A cop out in the form of noting reality, isn't one.
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Old Oct 10, 2012, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Eli Lipschitz View Post
Some religions don't believe in blood transfusions? Who?-Elmo? We are speaking about CATHOLICS here. I'm no Catholic, but you know as well as I do the vadility of their reputation and size
I believe Jehovah Witness do not believe in blood transfusions. Are they not worthy of discussion because they are a smaller group than Catholics?


Quote:
Birth control is a big deal, and frankly having sex with people you won't marry is a problem by itself and you know this..........so don't pretend that it's okay to say that religions don't matter.
Religions don't matter to anyone but the person practicing the religion.

Quote:
If you don't think it's a problem, then consider your daughter or wife screwing around with their teacher......humm not such a happy picture anymore that you are painting?
I didn't paint that picture, partner. You did. I didn't say anything about the morality of sex outside of a marriage. Again, that was you.

Quote:
It's boring to be repetitive, but I'll say it again. Government (tax-payers) paying for sex toys, sex control and other things is socialism, unamerican, against the constitution and something that is illegal for a reason-even under Obamacare.
Now you've moved the goal post. Who is talking about sex toys?

Quote:
If private insurance companies want to pay for your birth control or sex toys, that is fine.
My "birth control or sex toys". How did this discussion become so personal and what makes you think I use any of those things?

Quote:
It is just a problem if tax payers (me) pay for it, or if government forces insurance companies to pay for unrelated things.
It's a problem only because you want to draw the conclusion that if you pay for insurance then you are by substitution paying for birth control. You aren't. You are paying for insurance. They are paying for whatever their policy says they will. If it says it's going to pay for the pill then they are.

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In fact it is even unamerican
I'm not subject to your opinion of what it means to be an American. Neither is anyone else.

Quote:
America is #1 not because of government, but because of private people making great things.
America hasn't been #1 in a great many things for a very long time and being #1 isn't necessary a good goal if in the process you sacrifice too much to be there. Ask GM, they spent the past 4 decades trying to continue to be the worlds #1 auto maker and in the process they forgot about the actual health of the company. Look what that got them....

Quote:
People do a better job, not government. If you don't believe that, look at every example where USA dominates.
The government is made up of people. If it's broke then we need to get better people to run it. Oh, I'd love to see some of your examples of where the USA dominates outside American Football. Wait a minute..... I have a good example. Our military, a government run institution. Now lets have your non, government run examples. FWIW, I'm not a huge proponent of government run institutions.

Quote:
Also, you have an incredible amount of spin. Birth control does nothing for STDs. Go ask Magic Johnson that one. They have nothing to do with hormone imbalances. Other drugs treat that. Although I do not practice, I went to medical school at an inexpensive college in NYC.
I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night too but that doesn't make me an expert in medicine. Apparently you are not either but the AMA is. Look at some of their opinions on the subject some time. You might be surprised at what you find.
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Old Oct 10, 2012, 02:18 PM
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How about where couples take fertility drugs, pop'em out like a litter of puppies and then say "God will provide?"
Dunno what the question is. If God don't come thru, you better get a job
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Old Oct 10, 2012, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by MtnGoat View Post
A cop out in the form of noting reality, isn't one.
Obviously your observation of reality and mine are not the same on this subject. That's OK. It's not the first time.... Won't be the last either.

Cheers
Mike
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Old Oct 10, 2012, 02:45 PM
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I do agree that a simple cutoff is not desirable, I'd argue for a phaseout on a timeline of a few years.
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Old Oct 10, 2012, 02:50 PM
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Originally Posted by MtnGoat View Post
I do agree that a simple cutoff is not desirable, I'd argue for a phaseout on a timeline of a few years.
I think you and I are going to be wishing for things to happen for a long time without seeing anything improve. People like stasis.... it's easy. Honestly, if we could phase it all out over a few years that would be preferable to leaving it that way it is.
As I've said, I'd like a more protracted and involved approach but that's really pie in the sky.
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Old Oct 10, 2012, 03:11 PM
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6 months

Done
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Old Oct 10, 2012, 03:24 PM
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Originally Posted by bildo baggins View Post
6 months

Done
That's the kind of program that would almost guarantee riots and likely other more serious crimes.

This whole thing we call a society works when every most every major portion of it is healthy. If one part gets harmed badly enough the whole thing goes in the spitter.
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Old Oct 10, 2012, 04:24 PM
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That's the kind of program that would almost guarantee riots and likely other more serious crimes.

This whole thing we call a society works when every most every major portion of it is healthy. If one part gets harmed badly enough the whole thing goes in the spitter.
"Are there no prisons?" "Are there no workhouses?"
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Old Oct 10, 2012, 05:00 PM
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Riots over morning after pills? Weird
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Old Oct 10, 2012, 06:48 PM
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We were having two similar but different simultanious discussions. No riots over BC pills, im certain of that. Riots over all assistance cut off in a 6 month period is what I was talking about.

Workhouses, prisons..... Cut off all assistance and there be a huge shortage of those and law enforcement to reign them all in.....Hey, now there is a government program that will generate some work.... Might even turn around the economy and if you think I'm being serious here you need to pay a little closer attention before responding to my posts.
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Old Oct 10, 2012, 08:45 PM
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Here is an example of why I will never support abortion in any case other than rape. Anyone who says the fetus isn't a living human is lying to themselves.

http://www.renewamerica.com/columns/hughes/061018

Dr. Joseph Bruner, Director of Fetal Diagnosis and Treatment at Vanderbilt University Medical Center in Nashville, Tennessee, was performing surgery on a 21-week-old baby while he was still in his mother's womb to alleviate the effects of spina bifida.

When Dr. Bruner had made the incision for this extraordinary operation, baby Samuel reached his tiny hand out of the uterus and clutched Dr. Bruner's middle finger.
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Old Oct 10, 2012, 08:59 PM
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You don't cut off assistance, you stop the bleeding and unjustified payments. I always tell the too proud to applies that if everyone that could did, they would be forced to fix the system in quick order. Get rid of the dead weight will not s and help the can nots

Way too many professional poop sacks out there
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