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Old Jun 29, 2013, 08:12 PM
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bluffman's Avatar
United States, CA, Los Angeles
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If you are a slope flyer the heavier layup is the way to go in my opinion, if you are going to fly on a flat field, and occasionally fly slope the ighter layup will be a plus, I personally like the heavy f3f layups double carbon, and I still add balast before every flight. Ian
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Old Jul 04, 2013, 02:45 PM
Detail Freak
target's Avatar
Harbor City, CA
Joined Oct 2003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluffman View Post
If you are a slope flyer the heavier layup is the way to go in my opinion, if you are going to fly on a flat field, and occasionally fly slope the lighter layup will be a plus, I personally like the heavy f3f layups double carbon, and I still add ballast before every flight. Ian
That's because you have come from flying 25oz/sq ft PSS planes in higher lift, and you are used to that. Also, I know that you have had some bad luck in the LZ with F3B layup planes, and that is likely what you are basing your recommendations on. I think that is a fluke, just bad luck on your part...

However, that doesn't mean that a DS layup will fly better on the race course, and is the way to go. Its quite the opposite, heavier tips mean more throw on the ailerons to get the roll response that you are looking for, and then more correction to roll out. More deflection equals more drag. More drag equals less speed (in general).
You shouldn't base your decision on crashing but rather on flying. More accurately stated, I believe its the flying quality that should be the first priority, and other qualities as secondary.
Of course, to finish a contest in first, you HAVE to finish the contest. So that is where the layup comes into play.
In my opinion, you will get the best results on the clock from flying the layup that is lightest at the ends (wing tips and tail/nose weight), so long as its stiff enough. F3F is about constantly changing directions, without bleeding off energy. Flying too heavy a layup is similar to being over ballasted for the conditions, only worse, because your ballast is at the ends of the plane.

I'm probably wrong though, since I'm out-voted.

Thomas Lee-
What you get initially probably won't matter that much anyway when you are on the steep section of the learning curve. Just tune your plane and fly it a lot, and then shorten your course until you cut occasionally. Then adjust slightly longer. You will do fine. Its a lot of fun, for sure.

Best intentions/regards,
Target
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Old Jul 05, 2013, 02:51 AM
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Hong Kong
Joined Dec 2003
87 Posts
Hi Thomas,

You have to check our race record! We have a lot of 3~5m/s competitions and a lot of cancelled competitions!

A light model is definitely advantageous in weak conditions. You may still need a few hundreds gram of ballast for efficient flight, but the lighter wings is much more easier to maneuver in the light condition.

CM Cheng
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Old Jul 05, 2013, 08:41 AM
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United States, CA, Torrance
Joined Aug 2004
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Hi CM Cheng.

Thomas, a lighter weight plane that can be ballasted as necessary is the best of both worlds. You can fly in the light conditions with ease, and when conditions dictate, ballast to get maximum performance. Also, with lighter tips/tails, a better feel/response is felt by operator.
For example my Pike Precision weighs right around 1900grams. It also holds over 2000 grams ballast. Very nice.

WD
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Old Jul 05, 2013, 09:05 AM
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Canada
Joined Jul 2003
2,507 Posts
Guys get real,
Thomas was looking for his 1st. 3m moldie on a buget
Quote:
Looking for my next plane on a budget, something capable of competing with. I've narrowed the choices down to two planes, the Secret from Hong Kong, and the Zeus 3000 from China. I have a lot of very positive feedback from the HK F3F crowd regarding the Secret but haven't really met anyone who as flown the Zeus
extra light = extra $$$'s don't know why some come up with high end Models.

If conditions in Hk are so weak he could possibly compete with a Pike Perfekt

m2c
Thomas
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Old Jul 05, 2013, 11:29 AM
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San Diego
Joined Aug 2004
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Why not just keep flying the Toba? It's a decent plane and certainly good enough for you to learn with. Once you feel it is really holding you back, then look into getting something new. By that time you should have been able to save enough to buy a wide variety of models

Tom
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Old Jul 05, 2013, 04:25 PM
Detail Freak
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Harbor City, CA
Joined Oct 2003
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+1 TK....
Also, a handy guy like Thomas Lee could easily make up some bagged tails if he was interested in putting the Toba on a diet.
Between that and a lighter push rod system, he could probably make the Toba 6oz (or more) lighter than it is now, without any other mods.
I think the Toba did a 38 at Fermin, and had more left in it, when I sent it back to you and Dave.

R,
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Old Jul 05, 2013, 09:26 PM
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Hong Kong
Joined Sep 2010
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Guys, you are tremendous.
I guess it's the same across all F3X disciplines, glider guys are the coolest guys around, and lighter tips are always better

It's funny, I was reading the comments and suggestions in this thread this morning before work and I realized how many comments were things I would say to someone asking about entering F3K, but as soon as I step out of DLGs and enter something else my mindset completely changes.

I should stick with the Toba for now, and practice with it until I save up enough to buy something 'nice'. I know, I probably won't get to the limits of the Toba anytime soon, but I do like nice cutting edge machines with sexy nude spreadtow showing....guess that's the same with most of us

.... think I need to go get some ballast made for my Toba though.

Target, that sounds like a neat idea, but I have no clue on structural requirements for F3F tails, designs, and foils to use. What are the usual weights for a 'nice' set of tails? I do have access to a CNC machine so down the road I may be tempted to try and bag a solid-core tailset for the plane if time allows.
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Old Jul 05, 2013, 10:19 PM
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San Diego
Joined Aug 2004
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From the short time I played with the Toba, the tails are probably the one thing I might be critical of. The airfoils were somewhat thick and at high speeds it felt like there was a bit of a dead-band in the elevator response. If I were to make a new set of tails for the Toba, I would use the same plan-form but use the tail airfoil from something like a Fosa or Freestyler. I would use a 60 psi compressive strength foam and a single layer of 1.7 oz/sq yard kevlar cloth on a bias. For the spar I would use a .060" or .070" pultruded carbon rod embedded into the foam top and bottom. This type of layup is very similar to what you might find on a moderate weight bagged DLG. The joiner tube may be the trickiest part. I don't remember what the joiner looks like on the Toba. If it is a large diameter, it may not fit well into the new stabs with a thinner airfoil.

If it were me, I would just fly it as is and not worry about it.

Tom
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Old Jul 06, 2013, 01:04 AM
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Harbor City, CA
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http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showt...highlight=toba

Looks to be plenty of room for thinner tails on the Toba.
If your Toba doesn't have a tow hook, you can likely fit a decent sized ballast tube in the fuse.
I used wing ballast.

R,
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