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Old Mar 27, 2015, 10:49 PM
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Why no snaps and spins?

Why are there no snaps and spins in F3P sequences?
It would be interesting to see what airframe details have to change if snaps and spins were introduced.
F3A, F3P AM and IMAC all have snaps and spins - why not F3P sequences?

Looks as if airspeeds in 2015 F3P are half the airspeeds in 2013.
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Old Mar 28, 2015, 02:01 AM
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F3P models have such low wing loadings, they won't really stall. As soon as the nose drops, they have regained flying speed. Spins did not work well in F3P in 2009 and even much less nowadays.

Jürgen
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Old Apr 01, 2015, 11:04 PM
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I see from videos that snaps and spins were used in the 2012 ETOC sequence flights.
The new super-slow carbon/mylar model design has squeezed out snaps and spins in the WC sequence. Snaps and spins are the spice in aerobatics. They also separate the men from the boys. IMHO without them the sequence seems flat compared to F3A, F3P AM. IMAC and full scale.

Perhaps it would be good to add something like a two-turn inverted spin and some negative 1-1/2 snaps to the F3P WC sequence and let the model designs change to suit.
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Old Apr 02, 2015, 02:12 AM
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Personally I like the non snap patterns. I feel that maybe a few small snaps could be good. But if I were designing the patterns, I wouldn't include any snaps.

It will be interesting to see what happens.

Free
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Old Apr 02, 2015, 11:15 AM
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Well, at least the F3P-AP and F3P-AF 2017 proposals do not include any snaps or spins. They are different from the 2015 programs but I think the required skill level has not significantly changed. I'm not sure but the P sequence could be just a tad easier but I'm not the correct person to judge that since I have not flown the previous programs either, just our Nordic Advanced.

Also today's planes should do just fine with the new routines.

The good news is that the are planning to publish an "official" Advanced sequence in the same time that is simplified from the P program.
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Old Apr 03, 2015, 12:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RCNorthBC View Post
I see from videos that snaps and spins were used in the 2012 ETOC sequence flights.
...
Perhaps it would be good to add something like a two-turn inverted spin and some negative 1-1/2 snaps to the F3P WC sequence and let the model designs change to suit.
Looking at the video from Gernot Bruckmann's sequence flight, I don't see any "real snaps or spins":

Gernot Bruckman Flys Sequence ETOC 2012 (2 min 53 sec)


Most pilots would probably rather risk low scores in their snaps and spins than losing valid points in all other manoevers. As mentioned before: Snaps and spins just don't work at low wing loadings.

Jürgen
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Old Apr 03, 2015, 12:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Finnspeed View Post
Well, at least the F3P-AP and F3P-AF 2017 proposals do not include any snaps or spins. They are different from the 2015 programs but I think the required skill level has not significantly changed. ...

The good news is that the are planning to publish an "official" Advanced sequence in the same time that is simplified from the P program.
The propoosal for the new F3P-AP sequence appears even easier than the current one and unfortunately the proposal for F3P-AA is much easier than the current national F3P-B sequences.

We will see what happens to all the current F3P-B pilots. As the new F3P-A sequence is a tad easier than the old one, they may find it easier to move up to F3P-A, or they can relax and try to dominate the F3P-AA scene.

Jürgen
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Old Apr 03, 2015, 06:19 AM
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My initial impression was the same, but having tried to get through it (at my skill level ) I am not sure the proposed sequence is any "easier" than the current one.

The loop with integrated rolls in the current sequence is probably one of the most difficult to do and is no longer there, but the horizontal eight with integrated rolls is more of a challenge than the current rolling circle. And not the same as in AP13, since one roll is now "in" and the other "out". I have been mainly doing it as an inverted level eight without the rolls till I can get my head around it.

The first half of the Immelmann is a lot easier than the second one. You do the half loop down hill with throttle low, then have to immediately do a roll, difficult to do well. First half you have power on due to the climb, so the roll is easy to get in and keep straight.
The 4 point 1/2 roll in the half circle is also going to take some time to learn.

I do like the way that the AA sequence mirrors the AP one. Same basic shapes but typically without any integrated rolling. This should make progressing a bit easier.

It will also be interesting to see if the proposed sequence will be changed before approval.
Last time the trombone changed from a knife edge half loop to the 1/2 outside loop.

Pat MacKenzie
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Old Apr 03, 2015, 07:14 AM
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FAI F3P Schedules

I find this aspect of the hobby very fascinating and have been getting familiar with the different terms used but a couple have been mentioned that I do not know what they mean.

From the FAI Sporting Code, Section 4 - Aeromodelling, Volume F3 Radio Control Aerobatics:

The schedule F3P-AP is a preliminary schedule for expert pilots in Indoor Aerobatic Power Model Aircraft competitions.

The schedule F3P-AF is a finals schedule for expert pilots in Indoor Aerobatic Power Model Aircraft competitions.

The schedule F3P-AFM is for competitors to demonstrate their artistic performances in Indoor Aerobatic Power Model Aircraft in conjunction with music.

What is F3P-AA, F3P-B? These terms are not found in the above mentioned document.

Where does one find the 2017 proposed schedules?
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Old Apr 03, 2015, 07:35 AM
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AA is a proposed "advanced" schedule. I assume it is just a recommendation.

B schedule is a German indoor thing I think?

In Canada we use two different schedules for the other classes you can find them here:
http://xavier.mouraux.com/indoor/sequences.html

Since this proposal seems to be fairly widely known, I guess it is OK to post it here
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Old Apr 03, 2015, 10:45 AM
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Quote: Looking at the video from Gernot Bruckmann's sequence flight, I don't see any "real snaps or spins":

There is a snap at :52 - another snap at 1:40 and a spin at 1:50
Watch the other competitors to see it better.
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Old Apr 03, 2015, 02:18 PM
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The German B-schedule is also a simplified F3P-AP schedule, just like the Nordic Advanced which turned out to be very similar, although just a little bit easier than the German one.

And yes, I agree that the proposed Advanced is clearly easier than the German B. It is even easier than the Nordic Advanced. I'm thinking that the proposal could be used as a base of the new Advanced but a couple of moves should be made a bit harder.
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Old Apr 03, 2015, 02:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pmackenzie View Post
...
B schedule is a German indoor thing I think?
...
Usually only the top category ist standardised by the FAI. It is up to the NACs to introduce sequences below the A-Class which lead to the top class.

It is only logical to call them F3P-B, -C, - D etc.

For the DMFV competitions I deviate from the FAI F3P, i.e. by adding an Unknown-Sequence. I call this class F3P-Expert, the F3P-B I call F3P-Sport.

Jürgen
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Old Apr 03, 2015, 02:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RCNorthBC View Post
Quote: Looking at the video from Gernot Bruckmann's sequence flight, I don't see any "real snaps or spins":

There is a snap at :52 - another snap at 1:40 and a spin at 1:50
Watch the other competitors to see it better.
That's not what I would call real snaps and spins, hence the "".

Jürgen
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Old Apr 03, 2015, 04:31 PM
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Why not use AA-17 as a step up to B ?

I have the experience that very few pilots seem to go from C to B because the difference in degree of difficulty is quite big. Going from basic aerobatic maneuvers flown in the middle of the hall to a sequence with turnaround and integrated maneuvers are 2 steps at the time in my opinion.

Making C more difficult to reduce the difference is not an option because this will scare new pilots (so they won't even try).
Making B less difficult to reduce the difference with C, makes the transition to A more difficult, and for the current B pilots the sequence will become too easy.

If you put AA-17 in between C and B both issues are solved (something like C -> B2 = AA 17 -> B1 = actual B -> A)
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