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Old Oct 22, 2014, 08:55 PM
MMR
Martian
Joined Mar 2007
461 Posts
Yippee!
F5J Lite at the DESS Turkey Fly,November 15, Wilson, NC!

Guys,

we will be trying out F5J during our annual Turkey Fly at the Down East Soaring Society field in Wilson, NC. Altimeters/recorders will be available to use.

Mark your calendarsfor November 15th - and check out the thread, sign up page, etc. here:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2269066

Of course you can just show up and soar as well!

Thanks!

For the DESS, Martin
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Old Oct 26, 2014, 07:19 PM
Thermal Sniffer
Clayton NC
Joined Jun 2005
424 Posts
Martin, I didn't see this link until after I made the other one.
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Old Nov 17, 2014, 05:16 PM
Oleg Golovidov
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Raleigh, NC, USA
Joined Sep 2004
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re-posting from the other thread, since this forum is more about F5J...

We had a super great soaring day. We had several guests flying with us. We may soon have aero tow at our field as we had a couple new pilots interested in aero tow, one of them with a large tag plane. Lots of flying activities today, all kinds of gliders.

The F5J mini-contest was a great success. We had 6 pilots, although only 4 pilots turned in their scores. Some pilots had Altis v4 limiters, those worked well. Martin obtained several Sky Limit units fro Don Harban (thanks, Don!); those did not work for some reason (motors were starting ON immediately upon connecting the battery), so some pilots had to use CAMs and simply launch to 100/150/200m. Everybody seemed to enjoy the F5J format. Especially Brady he kicked all our butts big time, flying his super light Explorer 4m. I was trying to stay close to Brady and did surprisingly well for what I had to fly. My excuse for poor flying was a very heavy home built glider, with beat up leading edges I also did not have throttle control, only full On/Off. In F5J it really helps to have variable throttle to be able to cruise under partial power. Anyway, the scores are here in a google spreadsheet. You can see the launch altitudes, times, etc.


https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...it?usp=sharing

--
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Old Nov 17, 2014, 05:34 PM
Oleg Golovidov
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Raleigh, NC, USA
Joined Sep 2004
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A few more comments regarding F5J.

It was a new experience to all of us. I was worried that most of "normal" weekend soaring pilots may be pushed away by the extra challenge and extra logistics of F5J, but all of our pilots seemed to be very happy with the format. Although only 3 of us were using Altis units and were able to utilize an extra benefit from a lower launch altitude. The other 3 pilots were launching to full 200m with CAMs.

As expected, the main challenge and attraction of F5J was in the ability to read air from the ground and have enough courage to cut the throttle lower than your opponents and gain some points on them. Of course, making the full time and landing points is still required! otherwise a lower launch altitude is of little use which I proved myself a couple times. The opposite is also true: if one made the full time, and the full 50 point landing, launching 10m higher than your opponent is not really a total killer. Especially of your opponent misses the landing by 10 points - then you are actually ahead of him .

Compared to ALES, there is definitely a much stronger adrenaline rush during the first 30 seconds of the flight. One must identify a thermal before the launch, fly there at low altitude, confirm that the lift is there (while still powered up), trust his own decision, cut the power, and try NOT to climb for 10 more seconds! There is a lot of things here that are totally counter intuitive to a "normal" soaring pilot who is used to trying to get as high as possible as soon as possible after launch.

We all liked it enough that we will be doing it again
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Old Nov 17, 2014, 06:43 PM
I'd rather be Flying
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Nashville, NC, USA
Joined Mar 1999
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It was fun. I'm new to soaring and I'd like to do this again.
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Old Nov 17, 2014, 10:28 PM
Red Merle ALES
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United States, Mt, Helena
Joined Apr 2002
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A 37 meter launch and max the time? Seriously? Wow! Congratulations Brady.

Would you mind sharing the formula for scoring? I would like to play with this in an Excel spreadsheet,

Thanks
Curtis
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Old Nov 18, 2014, 12:14 AM
I'd rather be Flying
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Nashville, NC, USA
Joined Mar 1999
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here you go.
http://www.esoaring.net/index.php?page=rules
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Old Nov 18, 2014, 10:36 AM
agnotology
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Those are the 2012 F5J rules. The latest rules for any FAI class are always on the FAI document site:

http://www.fai.org/fai-documents

The 2014 F5J rules in particular are here:

http://www.fai.org/downloads/ciam/SC..._Electric_2014

Kevin

Edit: Don's F5J Lite version:

http://www.rcgroups.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1903281
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Old Nov 18, 2014, 11:01 AM
I'd rather be Flying
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Nashville, NC, USA
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Ah... didn't notice the date, sorry
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Old Nov 18, 2014, 01:26 PM
Oleg Golovidov
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Raleigh, NC, USA
Joined Sep 2004
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I can tell you that with no prior real contest experience, launching to a lower altitude is quite scary and takes a lot of determination. But that is the main attraction of F5J too. A 130m launch looks like a 50m launch at first and a 50m launch looks like a 20m launch. Then you get the plane down, look at the altimeter reading and it shows a much higher number.

Browse our results here and you can see how the launch altitude went down as the rounds progressed and we got more courage and experience.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...gid=1566410871
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Old Nov 18, 2014, 09:44 PM
Thermal Sniffer
Clayton NC
Joined Jun 2005
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Cool spread sheet !
I had no idea that Oleg was under my launch height 3 times. It is not every day or ever I score higher than him in a practice contest or contest of any kind. But I know it was directly related to the performance difference in our planes. And given the plane he was flying there was some amazing low level thermaling going on.
The last flight he started at 54 meters and got down to about 30m and told me it's over with. Then a few moments later I see his plane in the foreground circling even lower and drifting out to the point where you have to do the walk of shame.
I was marking the lift down wind and already high. I was thinking, the bus has left and he had no chance to catch it. So a few more turns and I could see his plane starting to climb. We where at 2 or 3 minutes about then and by the 7 minute mark his plane was higher than mine.

After all the years of training my brain to launch or throw higher I know I striped a few gears.
So first thing is obvious. To fly well, you will have to read the air.
Second thing is. If you don't have a read, how high to climb ?
Early in the day it was a little windy, so I decided to fly with ballast and launch high.
Second round I had a read so lower launch .
Third round I had no idea where the lift was and launched high .
The rest of the day winds where calm. I used no ballast and lift was easy to read.
I then got into a pattern of flying as low as I could. You know It's hard to fly low. I will have to practice more and it's really difficult to cut your motor off under tree high.
In my pattern, I used the first 5 to 10 seconds to fly to the area where I think the lift was at. Even at very very low power it was difficult not to climb. I had my low throttle set at a -150% and it was to high in order not to climb. I still had to push the nose down, which made it harder to judge if your where in lift or not.
Most of the time I cut the motor off under20 seconds. Earlier in the day when I wasn't sure where the lift was. At the 20 second mark I went full power to climb the remaining 10 seconds. But later in the day the last few rounds the motor was off at 10 seconds. I was thinking that you could go full power fly flat and cut the motor off. Sort of a zoom. I know this is a sore subject but rest assure it's very fair with the Altis because it reads F5J highest height until 10 seconds after cut off.

I can see F5J becoming very popular. I was worried that we would all bunch up in one thermal but that never happen . I only Know where Oleg went some of the time but for the most part there where huge separations to the planes in direction and altitude.
It's a lot like playing DLG all up last down every round. My Xplorer is a great flying plane but years from now when we get better and this becomes a landing contest it will be easy to award more points for lower launches. Then, I think smaller 1.5m planes like DLGs will have a big advantage.
Anyways I must like F5J I don't spent much time on RCG writing.
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Old Nov 19, 2014, 09:18 AM
Red Merle ALES
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United States, Mt, Helena
Joined Apr 2002
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F5j ALES

I would like to thank the DESS folks for sharing their experiences with F5J. I find this very interesting.

As I was reading the UK rules I noticed that landings are added to the flight score prior to normalization which is different than ALES where the landing is added as a bonus after normalization.

Since this was a small contest with one Group it was easy for me to take this entire contest and put it into a spreadsheet that scored it like F5J except add the landings as a bonus after normalization as in ALES. I was curious if there would be a difference. Their wasn't as the Final contest results did not change.

So in F5J the launch penalty is minus 1/2 point per meter up to 200 meters than -3 points per meter above that.

The idea behind ALES having the landing bonus after normalization is to make it more of a flying contest. So lets see how that works out. Here is an example:

This was Round 4 and comparing Brady and Oleg you can see that Brady came closer to the target time of 10 minutes but Oleg launched lower. Brady launched to 95m and Oleg to 74m. Brady maxed the landing and Oleg scored 40 pts.

When the landings were added to the normalization as in the top spreadsheet used at DESS Brady had 1000pts and Oleg 993. However, if landings were added after normalization as in the lower spreadsheet Brady has 1038 and Oleg had 1041.

I realize there are no rules for the USA for F5J ALES but I prefer the adding landings after normalization to help maintain soaring as a flying contest as much as possible.

Thanks for letting me share here.
All the best from Montana.

Curtis
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Old Nov 19, 2014, 09:34 AM
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Germany, NRW, Selfkant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brady Baggs View Post
I can see F5J becoming very popular. ............................... but years from now when we get better and this becomes a landing contest it will be easy to award more points for lower launches. Then, I think smaller 1.5m planes like DLGs will have a big advantage.
Anyways I must like F5J I don't spent much time on RCG writing.
For sure F5J is popular already in Europe and you guys described pretty well the challenges F5J offers. Also for sure F5J will never become a landing contest similar to F3J. The decisive factor in F5J is the height you start your glide. You can waist a few points by not landing spot on or by not landing in the last second, but that will, almost never, decide the outcome. Starting your glide at 100 or at 70 meters (or a lot lower or heigher ) is the decider !
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Old Nov 19, 2014, 12:08 PM
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USA, CA, Chico
Joined Feb 2011
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F5J looks waaaaaaay more interesting than ALES,, the idea of trading off launch height for landing points,, searching for lift on way out,, makes for VERY interesting strategy tactics .
As pointed out above,, it might even change plane choices.
I WANA try it ;-)
Forgive my newbie ignorance,, but if you have your throttle on the stick,, where would you put flap control?? Would you have throttle on stick only in launch mode??? Or put the throttle on a slider??

Ps edit : would be kinda cool if someone came out with an altitude limiter that transmitted the launch altitude data via Bluetooth to a smartphone. :-)
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Old Nov 19, 2014, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Airman74 View Post
Forgive my newbie ignorance,, but if you have your throttle on the stick,, where would you put flap control?? Would you have throttle on stick only in launch mode??? Or put the throttle on a slider??
Personally i do have "throttle" on a switch as to have three positions. One for take off, one for searching and one for rescue (full power )
The big advabtage of having fixed throttle positions is the ease of determining your final height.
Take off delivers apprx 5 m/sec, searching 1 and full power 12-14 m/sec height. So taking off in eight secs, searching for 14 and a last recue action of 8 secs would bring you to approx. 150 meters. Works out great as tested in quite a few comps
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