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Old Feb 07, 2010, 11:21 PM
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Steve,
I beleive that Archie was saying he has used both the CC 60 amp, and the new Ice 50 amp ESC for his planes.
My thunderchicken is getting pretty close to getting parts cut.
I have been slightly distracted with my Control line Precision Aerobatics plane for this year trying to get it sanded and painted. but soon its full on with the EF-1 project. I also have my prototype kit from Jerry about 2/3 done and it will be ready to cover soon as well
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Old Feb 08, 2010, 03:41 AM
We shall serve the Lord
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United States, TX, Kingsland
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Redman View Post
I hope you guys are happy with the Pogo. Seems pretty nice for the first commerical answer to this event.

Yes it will be at SEFF.

John
WOOHOO!!

Will it be available for sale before then?

McD
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Old Feb 08, 2010, 09:40 AM
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Austin,Texas, USA
Joined Jun 2001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Redman View Post
I hope you guys are happy with the Pogo. Seems pretty nice for the first commerical answer to this event.

I will say after reading the proposed rules, I hope the committe that is writing this sits down and educates themselves a bit more regarding the currently available ESC's out there. Not allowing you to use the BEC on board and requiring a separate battery pack to power the radio system is pointless. All it does in add extra weight to a model that definitely does not need it. There are solid solutions for this that have been available for a number of years.

Yes it will be at SEFF.

John
There is a very good reason for having a second battery to power the receiver and servos. It is a matter of safety. If your ESC should fail there is a good possibility you will lose receiver power and crash. And if you are using a JR or Spektrum 2.4 and the voltage of the battery drops too low you get a brown-out which turns the receiver off just long enough to crash. This is not speculation - it is based on experience. The added ounce of a little 2cell lipo does not have a noticible effect on performance of these planes.
BTW, I will be at SEFF and will bring a Pogo, Little Toni, and Outrageous.
Look forward to seeing you there.
George Parks
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Old Feb 08, 2010, 09:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by George Parks View Post
There is a very good reason for having a second battery to power the receiver and servos. It is a matter of safety. If your ESC should fail there is a good possibility you will lose receiver power and crash. And if you are using a JR or Spektrum 2.4 and the voltage of the battery drops too low you get a brown-out which turns the receiver off just long enough to crash. This is not speculation - it is based on experience. The added ounce of a little 2cell lipo does not have a noticible effect on performance of these planes.
BTW, I will be at SEFF and will bring a Pogo, Little Toni, and Outrageous.
Look forward to seeing you there.
George Parks
This completely ignores the fact that a separate BEC http://www.castlecreations.com/products/ccbec.html will NOT be affected by an ESC failure.

Not to mention that with your 2 cell lipo scenario, if you are not running Spektrum you still need a regulator!
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Old Feb 08, 2010, 10:12 AM
Electron Abuser
Allen, Texas (North Dallas)
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"Originally Posted by John Redman
I hope you guys are happy with the Pogo. Seems pretty nice for the first commerical answer to this event.

I will say after reading the proposed rules, I hope the committe that is writing this sits down and educates themselves a bit more regarding the currently available ESC's out there. Not allowing you to use the BEC on board and requiring a separate battery pack to power the radio system is pointless. All it does in add extra weight to a model that definitely does not need it. There are solid solutions for this that have been available for a number of years.

Yes it will be at SEFF.

John"


John

I understand your point about the convenience of an ESC onboard BEC, but most of us that have been flying electric F5D and F5B events for years have been down this road many times. When higher currents are used, there is danger involved by using onboard BECs'. As others in this thread have mentioned, all it takes is for the main battery power to have an issue, or an overaggressive setup/current draw to cause controller overheating and frying and you are out of luck. I've "let the smoke out a couple of times" as we say with my F5D racer looking like a damaged spitfire trailing smoke all the way down. Ask Jerry. I'm overaggressive on setups. Without the separate rx battery pack, I would have lost the plane and posed a safety issue. I would have lost 2 F5D racers if I had been using ESC onboard BECS in the last 3 years.

That's why the high power guys (not park flyers) even use opto-isolators (also helps filter ESC rf noise) between the ESC servo lead and RX, or they will add a current limiting resister to the lead which prevents a shorted ESC from taking out the separate RX receiver power. Remember the ESC control signal and power leads are connected to the RX receiver power bus.

I think we are fairly safe at these power levels, but bear in mind we can't control everything a person is going to do with sizing of components. Safety should be a main concern. An instance happened to me last year when I was flying an electric Sundowner (33% or so) racing against the GAS versions at Freddy French's Ranch in Austin Texas. The motor fried taking out the controller. No problem, I had a RX pack.

There are a lot of issues besides the obvious. There have been some other posts about this as well in this thread by some experienced racers. This is an accepted "best practice" in F5D pylon and higher power events like F5B and electric pattern. Ask any FAI competition pattern flyer today using electric if they use the ESC BECS.
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Old Feb 08, 2010, 11:04 AM
Battery Puffer
Orange, California, United States
Joined Nov 2001
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You guys are trying to compare F5D and big power planes to these 50 amp planes. Its not the same thing. For starters I wouldn't run a 60 amp controller on a 50 amp setup. I would recomend 80 amp minimum. I know your trying to keep the cost down but to me it sounds like at the expense of safety. I run dimension engineering becs in all my fast planes, 30% planes and helis for years now and never one failure. I had a 10s plane loose its battery and there was still enough voltage in the pack to power the servos. These planes are a little more power than park flyers and controller becs should be fine. I have never had a controller bec fail in flight but adding the castle bec or whatever one you want should be more than enough for safety reasons. The failure rate on becs is no more than a receiver battery that someone forgot to charge.

Mark
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Old Feb 08, 2010, 11:28 AM
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I respectfully understand the points here, but some of us really disagree because we've experienced many power issues from the main pack. I've had two low dollar sport main power lipos (not low current Rx packs) that had intermittent internal connections right from the start that only showed up in flight during higher current loads. The cycler did not show any issues before or after. If I had no external RX battery, the plane would have been lost. The cases are certainly there, especially for people that will push the combinations.

Yes, I understand that many people use BEC's on many models. I fly helicopters too and run a separate pack on my TRex 600, but not 450. These details are not going to affect the class or appeal. And by the way, these are not slow low power park flyers; they hum a long quite well. They are not far off the power (1000 watt min) that we run in our 200+ mph F5D ships.

There is a safety judgment where this issue crosses the line. We want to start with a set of rules that errs on the side of safety. We simply want to be on the safe side of the line.

And yes, we are going to be ironing out the rules as we go down the path here.
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Old Feb 08, 2010, 12:38 PM
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Mark and John J, I respect both of your opinions. Understand that all discussion points will be taken and used for the final draft of the rules.

Both of you have been around electrics for a long time. And have well established practices.

I think the key here is to let stuff get rolling and we will finalize the rules as this year goes on.

Mark, this stuff is tame to what you have done. But I think you could have a ton of fun with it.

Personally, just because I am stubborn and have been burned by it, I use a seperate RX batt.

DK
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Old Feb 08, 2010, 02:06 PM
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Joined Jul 2004
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An extra receiver pack is no big deal....I use a 2s lipo pack with a low voltage audio alarm works great. Even blinks on and off so one knows the voltage of the pack.
7 slow blinks and one fast blink = 7.1 volts.

http://nqrc.com/?vp=PLD-BAC-ESJ6
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Old Feb 08, 2010, 02:24 PM
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Southlake, Tx
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We must be doing something right !! Received an email last night from Robert Van Den Bosch of the Netherlands , current world champion in F3D , thanking us for our efforts to bring racing to everyone and wanting to join in...even though he had not cared for electrics before. Now he wants to get an EF1 and start promoting the event in Europe.
This thing is going to be BIG.
jerry
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Old Feb 08, 2010, 04:47 PM
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John, sent you a pm for an offline discussion to explain my points. I agree with all of you, all have good valid points. This is an area where we must determine the best road to take to make this work.

You amke it complicated and expensive and you might be coming to an end before the beginning. As it was explained to me this is to revive the world of pylon and get new racers into the program. That is the main intent correct?

John
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Old Feb 08, 2010, 05:14 PM
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I'm also curious about the rules requiring a separate RX pack. To me it makes more sense to require the use of a separate BEC which can be powered by the flight pack. It simplifies the operation of the plane from a charging perspective as well as preventing control loss due to frying both sides of the ESC.

In practice I've fried a few ESC's while trying different props but have yet to lose the RX side of the ESC. I'm not saying that this doesn't happen, just that I haven't personally experienced it.

I have watched quite a few glow planes go in due to an RX pack that looked fine on the ground but seemed to fail in flight.

While I know I don't have the years of experience that those building the rules for this class of racing do I'd ask that they take another look at allowing the planes to use a single battery with the RX power fed from an approved BEC. Saves weight and simplifies the power source in my opinion.
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Old Feb 08, 2010, 05:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John Jennings View Post
I've had two low dollar sport main power lipos (not low current Rx packs) that had intermittent internal connections right from the start that only showed up in flight during higher current loads. The cycler did not show any issues before or after. If I had no external RX battery, the plane would have been lost.
I'm very excited about the class and will participate no matter what the rules are, that is for sure.

However, the quote above baffles me. How is that same pack going bad any different if it is powering the rx side of things? Your Rx pack can fail just as easily as any other. do you really think that just because your are drawing less current out of an Rx pack it is somehow immune to a bad solder joint, or shoddy workmanship, etc.?
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Old Feb 08, 2010, 05:52 PM
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Sydney, Australia
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Rx packs don't take the hammering that a flight pack in a pylon racer will. Also, most Rx packs are likely to be assembled a bit better than el cheapo lipo packs that people will want to use. Come on, guys, it's not like you're being asked to spend $100 on a special battery, a 2 cell A123 1100mAh pack will more than suffice and costs very little, you don't need a regulator, just plug it directly into the Rx. This is what we use in big EDF models and they are extremely reliable. In the heat of racing, things go wrong and fail, lipos puff, the motor may overheat, de-mag and take out the esc and batt. In 25 years of pylon racing, I've never had an Rx pack fail, though. I'm not sure why people would risk failure in a racing model if you can still be on minimum weight with a separate Rx pack.
Whatever the rules say, I would always use a separate Rx pack.

Stu.
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Old Feb 08, 2010, 06:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stumax View Post
Rx packs don't take the hammering that a flight pack in a pylon racer will. Also, most Rx packs are likely to be assembled a bit better than el cheapo lipo packs that people will want to use. Come on, guys, it's not like you're being asked to spend $100 on a special battery, a 2 cell A123 1100mAh pack will more than suffice and costs very little, you don't need a regulator, just plug it directly into the Rx. This is what we use in big EDF models and they are extremely reliable. In the heat of racing, things go wrong and fail, lipos puff, the motor may overheat, de-mag and take out the esc and batt. In 25 years of pylon racing, I've never had an Rx pack fail, though. I'm not sure why people would risk failure in a racing model if you can still be on minimum weight with a separate Rx pack.
Whatever the rules say, I would always use a separate Rx pack.

Stu.


Ahh...nevermind, not worth arguing over.

FWIW, I have had Rx packs fail in my model (pylon and turbine included). All it takes is the Rx lipo to be left on ONE time and run flat, and it's ruined. IMHO...for the guys were are catering to (non racers) this scenario or a not properly cared for pack scares me way more than over propping and burning up the ESC.
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