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Old Apr 03, 2008, 09:11 PM
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My schooner

Well I started my schooner. I bought the America kit but relized It was huge. So dang it I made my own plans. It seems to work out better when I just start cutting. I think its a mix between the America and the Bluenose, and a skipjack.
I hope my ballest works out. I inlaid a 1/4 inch piece of steel in the 1/4 inch keel.


before I start planking Im trying to learn the ropes own a starter shooner. Again no plans just started cutting. I will not finish this boat I just wanted to practice . Im cutting my planks from oak on the table saw.
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Old Apr 03, 2008, 10:17 PM
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I will watch this with interest.

thanks for taking the time to post
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Old Apr 07, 2008, 06:16 AM
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John, They look great!

Not sure if the metal in the keel will be enough, but what do I know?

The planking of your trial hulls looks very good - judging by the Glue bottle they must be around 14 inches long?

You make progress in impressive surges - inspires the rest of us!

Keep us posted!

andrew
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Old Apr 07, 2008, 07:28 AM
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Hi John,

Great looking frame!

If you intend to actually sail this boat fully rigged, the steel ballast will not be sufficient.
You'll need at least(!) the same quantity in lead in the same location and even that will be barely enough to keep the boat upright in the lightest of winds.

An additional keel (in stead of the "internal" ballast in the keel) with a bulb is not scale, I admit, but your schooner will most certainly perform!

For display you can make the keel removable.

Regards, Jan.
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Old Apr 07, 2008, 05:21 PM
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Hello John,

It is very clear that the Forum Members do not wish to see you build your Schooner in a way that it would not sail well.
A Schooner has a large sail area when compared to an ordinary yacht.
This means that the wind effort on the sails has got to be balanced by a big, low keel.
Adding ballast to the scale Hull will only enable the model to sail in very light winds - - if at all !!.

The decision to build a Drop Keel MUST be taken at an early stage in the build process, or, it will need extensive mods to the Hull later.
Much easier to build the model with a drop keel at the start, it can always be taken out of the model for exhibition purposes if required.

Have a look at my Website www.john-dowd.co.uk
My Schooner, Bluenose, sails fully rigged in all sorts of winds AND, the drop keel is never seen whille she is doing it !!.
Cheers,
John.
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Old Apr 07, 2008, 09:51 PM
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I'm planning if required to be able to drill thru my keel in to the hull and then glue a tube even with the bottom of the scale keel thru the hull to the main deck, as in the SC&H ships, then being able to remove the external keel easily. I think that a black or dark green-blue-gray colored keel will disappear quite easily in our pond sea water.
We'll each see, but I agree, far better to plan way ahead instead of trying to refit the ships later.

Your schooner doesn't look like it needs the steel for strength the way you have it mounted now... Think may be you should replace it with lead and be ready to add the external keel. What is your displacement going to scale our to be for your model? Calculate it by taking full size tonnage and dividing it by the cube of scale. In my case it was full size displacement 65*2000lbs. and a scale of 1/24 --> 65/24^3=10lbs. My ship will come in at 10lbs if I have the maximum number of 10 servos, but I will likely not have more that 6. So the ship should weigh about 8lbs... and I think I could take up to 12lbs if I had too. I have many options with how to finish the ballasting of my ship; I want to keep it as close to the real ship as I can. If that means a "shallow" false keel, I'll do that. If it means a full "long" ODOM style keel, then I will grudgingly do that. What ever works. If you take 1-3 years to build a working model, I'd say that the skipper will do nearly anything to get it to sail right.

Best of enjoyment in your endeavors!
Jason
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Old Apr 08, 2008, 04:40 PM
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andrew , yes the practice hull is about 14 inches.....good guess

pombled, I hate bulb keels, Im trying to keep the ballest in the hull. What do you think of the new weight?

Jaydee, Love the site, been there many times...... What do you think of the new setup?

Thanks for the replies, Its really helpful. I dont want to build something that wont work.


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Old Apr 08, 2008, 04:42 PM
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my other planking job so far.

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Old Apr 08, 2008, 05:00 PM
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How long is your hull and how much does it weigh now?

Have you figured your displacement and model weight yet? My boat I was able to to the accurate calculations because I was building to exact plans. If you're changing your hull as you feel lead, one idea is to cover the hull ribs with light weight "shopping bag" plastic and test float it in the bath tub. There by getting a general idea how the volume of the hull and the weight of the model will balance. Weigh your components; servo, masts, and get a rough idea of hold much hull planking will be needed in the finished boat, then add that weight to the bagged hull when you test float it. If it sinks... you have too much weight!

Also admittedly if you plank or double plank the frames that you have the hull will displace more water and be able to hold more weight than the "bare bones" frame & bag method.

We look forward to seeing another schooner taking shape!
Jason

P.S. Nice work on the 1:1 scale floor planking! Just remember that house floors are level, but boat decks are crowned!
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Old Apr 09, 2008, 05:07 AM
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Hello John,

You say that you hate drop keels because they are "not to Scale", yet the latest addition of metal to your keel is also "not to Scale".
It is just possible to extend the depth of a keel in that fashion and achieve a reasonable sailing performance.

The amount of extra keel would grossly distort the profile of the model.
Also the model is not to scale permanently, the keel additions are fixed, whereas a drop keel can very easily be removed and a small plug fitted in its place for exhibition purposes.

Nobody who has seen my Schooner sailing has never said anything negative about the drop keel, most folk accept that it is required to achieve good sailing performance.
At exhibitions with the keel removed, the model sat on a table, with the sails around 8 feet over their heads, everybody agrees the keel is a necessity !!.

Have a good think about it John, we are all trying to help, we are not criticizing your building ability in any way, but simply pointing out that others have done that, been there !!.
A photo of Bluenose ON A TABLE !! - - not many of them ! to prove the keel DOES come out.

Cheers,
John.
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Old Apr 10, 2008, 08:31 AM
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Hello,
The Stand which is shown in the picture below fits into the keel slot, the model is then presented in a most realistic manner, no cradles or braces holding the hull, the lines of which can be seen in their entirety.

Made from plywood, the stand is a simple, yet strong item, some I have seen have been works of art, with Anchors, ropework and other Naval items, engraved Brass nameplates ect, ect.

I prefer a subdued sort of stand, mine is matt black, I let the model speak for itself !!.

John.
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Old Apr 10, 2008, 04:59 PM
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yea I think Im talked in to it Im going to try to save my bulkheads and cut a new keel
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Old Apr 10, 2008, 04:59 PM
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great idea with the stand jaydee
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Old Apr 11, 2008, 06:48 AM
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John!

Hold it a moment!

All of the well meaning advice is that your integral keel is not (necessarily) enough. We would all agree that it is a good idea but while Iron and gravity have their current values it will not be enough for you to avoid disappointment when you have towering mountains of white canvas and a fresh breeze!

Phew - so all the advice is to make a provision for an external keel of some sort. PLEASE don't tear your construction apart - drill a couple of holes up thru the keel (whatever its made of) bond in brass tubes up to deck level and Bob is your avuncular relative! (or as we say on the web "viola") Or go for Jaydee's keel slot on the same basis.

It needs to be said:
Your construction and posting and activity and sheer speed of mastering fresh techniques are a real inspiration to me - and I dare to believe lots of others!
I strongly therefore want you to have the success and pleasure that you have earned.
You have my support, best wishes and admiration
andrew
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Old Apr 11, 2008, 07:13 AM
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Oh and no harm in the advice......thanks everyone. Advice is half the learning experience
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