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Old May 06, 2013, 01:38 PM
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Joined May 2013
66 Posts
you say salpeter is not the highest lancher in the hand of average flyers. Does the one with better throwing technick throw it higher then`? and that they would not been throwing stream even higher than salpeter?


and so I take it you really feel that stream is THE best plane at the moment for all conditions I take?
How does it handle light conditions then? how is the float compaired to the famos salpeter and signaling of lift, even though you said that you did not have much experience with it. I just have heard over and over, get a salpeter, its THE best plane still. that the new modells still cant beat the german design from 2006? I find it strange. but still the german won the eurochamp with it. so if they did have a way to improve it I bet they would. So maybe it still is that good?
But do you honestly feel that stream beats it? in light conditions?
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Old May 06, 2013, 02:04 PM
Aurora Builder
United States, MD, Lusby
Joined Nov 2003
3,431 Posts
For what it's worth several top pilots that own Salpeters aren't flying them stateside anymore. Maybe they still work better in Europe, copy from IHLG thread:

1 George Morris - Concept X2 & 3
2 Reto Fiolka -Super Fr3ak
3 Michael Smith - Concept X3
4 Mike Maurer - Polaris
5 Oleg Golovidov - Validol
6 Skip Miller - Polaris/Fr3ak (?)
7 Donnie Langdon -Polaris
8 Joe Wurts - Stobel V3
9 Paul Anderson - Polaris
10 Bruce Davidson - Polaris

Honestly I don't see how a well flown Stream would get beat by a well flown Salpeter, as soon as the conditions change the Salpeter has to land and get ballasted up.
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Old May 06, 2013, 02:09 PM
Aeromodeller by heart!
RubSon's Avatar
Herning, Denmark
Joined Dec 2002
632 Posts
I have both planes.

So I think Im allowed to kick in here

1) Nothing beats a SALpeter in light conditions!

2) Stream is by miles a much better allrounder!

The Standart SALpeter has a ballast-isue(design), but Ive seen it solwed in different ways. If you can make a decent ballastsystem for this bird, she will fullfill mot of your needs. Even comming home against the wind.
The Stream lacks only a tiny bit in light conditions. Its faster and thereby not so floaty. In allmost any aspect its better than the SALpeter.

But that just my opinion

Ruben
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Old May 06, 2013, 03:28 PM
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Joined May 2013
66 Posts
thanks to both of you.
seems like its still best to have several designs ready then.
a salpeter for light conditions, and another one (polaris, stream or other ) for wind?
and ruben, what do you consider litght conditions where you feel nothing beats your salpeter? only no wind or light wind too? in light conditions, wouldnt the increased launch height on stream still make the stream a better plane even there?
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Old May 06, 2013, 06:33 PM
Aussie F3K Pilot
Melbourne, Australia
Joined Jun 2008
503 Posts
Hi Takon_Back,
The issue of selecting a plane and calling it the best is all very complicated because launch height, sink rate, handling, pilot flying ability, pilot flying style, setup and weather conditions can all contribute to which plane you pick up and which one you think is the best.

Lets take the example of a Salpeter versus a Stobel V3 (because I have both).

1. If the conditions are dead calm and there is NO lift, then I pick up the Stobel V3 because I can launch it higher and with 4mm of flap and a rearward CG it will out hang my Salpeter. If someone did not have their Stobel setup right and I had a 255g Salpeter instead of my current 295g Salpeter then maybe it would be different. If I was a strong launcher then maybe the Stobel would still out hang the Salpeter 255g Salpeter. If I was not a smooth flyer then the Stobel would lose out because with 4mm of flap it is very critical to fly and I should fly the Salpeter.

2. If the conditions were calm BUT there was very light lift then I would fly the Salpeter because it can turn on a wingtip and go up in a fart. I can't fly my Stobel in tight enough turns to stay with the Salpeter in light lift. However if I knew my Stobel inside out and I fly with a forward CG and I only use Rudder and I have the 265g version and I spent more time getting the right flap setting, then I might be able to beat the Salpeter (like Joe Wurts can).

I could go on...the point is there are too many variables to generalize.

I have 6 different weather classifications and with my flying style, ability, intimate model knowledge, model weight and setup I could be choosing one of three different models for each weather condition to have the 'best model'. The thing is this changes as I get to know my planes better.

The key is to get a plane (like the Stream) and fly the pants off it. You might find a setup and style that can win in every condition.

I hope this helps.

Cheers,
Marcus

p.s. On the Salpeter debate, I think the Salpeter is better suited to the lighter European conditions rather than the more agressive American conditions, however I also don't think (generalising here) the Americans have played with enough ballast (up to 120g) and reflex (4mm) to get their Salpeters to sing in the windy conditions. It took some of my Aussie friends a few years development to figure this out. Now their Salpeters hold their own in any weather conditions...just like Martin Herrig can do. I am sure with the right development a Stream could (or maybe already does for some) fly great in all conditions.
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Old May 06, 2013, 11:16 PM
In F3J size does matter!
roydor's Avatar
Israel
Joined Nov 2006
836 Posts
Marcus,
Great post!

I would like to add a thing or two:
Salpeters are known to float best at 280 grams or so, any lighter than that and there is no benefit (at least this is what I’ve heard). In winds they need much more ballast which makes it harder to throw, I've heard of Salpeters being flown as heavy as 450 grams I've flown my Stream in 10 m/sec wind at 350-360 grams and did well. Throwing a 450 gram model seems crazy to me, I feel that with anything heavier than 350 I would not be able to survive a full competition and my launch height really suffers, but that is me and my own physical limitations.
Martin Herrig is one of the best pilots in the world and has been flying the Salpeter from the day it came out , that says it all!
For me, I find the Stream signals very well and turns very well and although I have very little flight time on it I believe in it and appreciate the launch height.
In addition, in most of the air I fly in, there is always some rising air, it is very rare to find unworkable conditions so I prefer an all-rounder optimized for launch height rather than a floater. That is my preference for the conditions I usually fly in and might not suit others.

And last and not least is the waiting period, as I understand, a Salpeter requires lots and lots of patience....

Good luck with your choice and whatever you decide to get you will be good with it as long as you "fly the pants off it"

Roy
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Old May 07, 2013, 01:38 AM
M Seid
Solana Beach, Ca
Joined Sep 2006
2,996 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Machineman View Post
I would fly the Salpeter because it can turn on a wingtip and go up in a fart.
Lol.....Marcus... Forgive me, this is not directed at you at all...I ask politely your permission to interrupt....and say...ahem....excuse me. I would like to enter this debate with both indignation, and indigestion (Cinco de Mayo treated me just fine btw) and demand that this discussion, and any subsequent claims made about the best plane in light air -specifically- flatulent air be put to the test. I have heard a lot of these claims lately, but the question is always the wrong one. The correct question is not "which is the best plane?" it really is "which is the best flatulent air?"!

Is it in fact generated by gophers? Or is it insects? Or perhaps it IS a German fart that creates the most active lift! Why are we focusing on the plane, and not the true variable here? I have it on good authority that the Polaris' wing was actually optimized and field tested to fly better than the sal peter in farts. There is data to support this. I doubt anyone has farted on the salpeter since 2006...so why would anyone buy it? You guys need to get your heads out of your arses so you can really tell me how you plan to keep your planes up in light lift conditions.
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Old May 07, 2013, 01:58 AM
Aussie F3K Pilot
Melbourne, Australia
Joined Jun 2008
503 Posts
LOL
Mike,
I'd like to know if they are Mexican Gophers or Texan Gophers so I can get the right fart density for my analysis.
Marcus
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Old May 07, 2013, 09:19 AM
F3B and F3K
RetoF3X's Avatar
United States, TX, Dallas
Joined Mar 2009
1,563 Posts
Mike and Markus

You can laugh now, but in Denmark we will surely again see that the SalPeter is a very competitive plane and especially deadly in marginal air.

Each plane has its specific strength and the SalPeter has a very high lift wing. In wind I fly mine at up to 360gr and it penetrates fine, launches great and the climb rate in thermals is still very good.

My Validol (same should apply to Stream) already gives up significantly in climb rate when I load it just a bit over 300gr. It runs however very well even at low weights, so very different concepts.

Thus if the weather is really ugly, a heavy SalPeter is still a good option (the weight will carry it better through turbulence).

Just some random thoughts. Keep in mind that the SalPeter is more than 6 years old and the design was constrained by the available wing servos (DS281) and materials back then (no spread tow). Still Herrig and Vogler are top favorites for Denmark with their Peters, thus great design work.

Best,
Reto
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Old May 07, 2013, 11:03 AM
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Joined May 2013
66 Posts
But I wonder why herrig and demmler dont make a new plane that set a new standard for years to come. Or why the new planes dont just wipe the peter away now!

But does the sub 300 validol who is same wing as stream penetrate just as well as a heavy peter then?

And more important how is stream to signal weak lift and how does it signal lift in turbulent air, to tell if it is something worth turning on and not just some dissorted air?
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Old May 07, 2013, 11:19 AM
Aurora Builder
United States, MD, Lusby
Joined Nov 2003
3,431 Posts
Takon,

Having flown a Validol in several contests (same wing as Stream I believe) and against them, I can say with certainty that they penetrate with the best of them without lots of lead.

Most importantly these ships signal lift extremely well, surfing the trees is very easy as is working very low lift (2-3' above the ground). I have flown on the gopher farts Seid produced with the Validol and it was an absolute pleasure!!!

If the list for a SALpeter is still so long, I would order a Stream.
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Old Jul 12, 2013, 07:18 AM
In F3J size does matter!
roydor's Avatar
Israel
Joined Nov 2006
836 Posts
New personal best today!
I managed to launch my Stream two meters higher then my PB. I managed 59 meters
My personal best was set over 18 months ago with a Flow when I was still practicing twice a week,and in much better shape (10 pounds lighter )

At the end of a three hour flying session I dropped a RAM3 in the Stream and launched 23 launches, wind was 2-4 meters per second.
I averaged 53.8 meters over the 23 launches with only one below 50 meters (only 49), had 9 launches 55 and over out of which three were 57 and over (my previous PB).

The Stream, is a launching machine and I am sure that if I get back into shape I will be able launch much higher.
I am super happy and plan to try and break 60 meters before the summer is out
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