HobbyKing.com New Products Flash Sale
Reply
Thread Tools
Old Jul 16, 2014, 05:42 AM
Registered User
United States, MA, Wenham
Joined Jan 2007
1,461 Posts
Discussion
American Marblehead Class

This thread will serve the purpose for discussion about the American Marblehead Class, which will begin sailing this Sunday. The class is organizing and currently has just under 20 boats.

I am not an organizer of the class, but rather opening the discussion platform for those interested.

Rules for the American Marblehead class can be found here:
http://www.mmyc.us/ClassChanges.html
breakwater is online now Find More Posts by breakwater
Reply With Quote
Sign up now
to remove ads between posts
Old Jul 16, 2014, 07:09 AM
Don't lie to my dog.
Gregg28's Avatar
United States, DE, Wilmington
Joined Jun 2005
3,070 Posts
I think that I kind of like this.
Thanks
Gregg28 is online now Find More Posts by Gregg28
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 16, 2014, 08:26 AM
Registered User
United States, MI, Bloomfield Hills
Joined Feb 2010
546 Posts
Hey breakwater,

I'm confused again, you said:

"Yeah. The efforts to have them just be Marbleheads isnt worth it. We need hundreds of micro-compartmentalized classes. None of them
Competitive with each other. Each living inside its own bubble like Sim City.

Thats why all your projects to build or refurbish Ms should come to a screeching hault, and go buy a one-design to protect your assets"

Now you start a thread that has 4 classes of boats and two completely different set of rules, all the same length. And here I thought they were all just Marbleheads.
TedFlack is offline Find More Posts by TedFlack
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 16, 2014, 08:39 AM
Registered User
United States, MA, Wenham
Joined Jan 2007
1,461 Posts
I started this thread for those interested in the American Marblehead Class, and described immediatley that I am not an organizer of it.

You also may be mis-interpreting the goal unfortunately. It is one class with four divisions. The entity of MMYC will act as class sectretary as opposed to any one person, and anyone who is interested in this class... There should be a description as to where to send your seven bucks.
breakwater is online now Find More Posts by breakwater
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 16, 2014, 10:06 AM
Registered User
Dick L.'s Avatar
Minnesota, USA
Joined Aug 2002
2,140 Posts
So - I think I asked before - is Biff/Ben "pushing" this, and how do we get questions answered and ideas considered? Is he on-line, or email questions through the club, or ?????? Phone answers not advisable due to "interpretation" of what was said in an answer - and "snail mail" - really, in this day and age ?

A combination of both rules would be close to my (revised restoration) and planned 50/800 concept, except for the sail formula rule in post 70's boats. I like the pre 70's sail measurement which is close to that used for US1M. No "BS" - just the measured triangle of main from tack to head to clew - and limited dimensions for foot and roach. NOW THAT IS EASY TO UNDERSTAND!

Still undecided about "why" there is a limitation on jib attachment height.

Close, but no cigar .............. yet
Dick L. is online now Find More Posts by Dick L.
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 16, 2014, 11:33 AM
Registered User
Joined Jun 2009
83 Posts
Re: Jibstay Height

One of the goals of proper class rule writing, is that class rules should not only control the basic speed generating aspects of the boat and its rig, but it should insofar as reasonably possible guide the configuration of the boat such that newcomers to the class are led/pointed toward a configuration that will be robust and successful. When the class was born in the 1930's, masts were all wooden, and by specifying a fractional rig, builders were guided toward a standing rigging configuration that supported the mast and gave good control over its shape.

With the advent of carbon fiber masts this may not currently be so important, but that notwithstanding, I would still be in favor of a maximum jib stay height measurement as that produces the standing rigging configuration that gives mast shape control and hence good performance that assists new skippers and old ones too in getting the most out of their sails and rigs.

While I am at it, let me state that I am in favor of adopting the International Rule and ending once and for all the petty, isolationist attitude that has infected the US skippers since AMYA formed. There is plenty of evidence that the fracturing of major classes has done little to promote the ability of US skippers to compete on the world stage. Might be that we've cut off our bowsprits to spite our faces!!!
RodACarr is offline Find More Posts by RodACarr
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 16, 2014, 03:13 PM
Registered User
Dick L.'s Avatar
Minnesota, USA
Joined Aug 2002
2,140 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by RodACarr View Post
There is plenty of evidence that the fracturing of major classes has done little to promote the ability of US skippers to compete on the world stage. Might be that we've cut off our bowsprits to spite our faces!!!
Rod - with all due respect, what international classes have truly been impacted by the fracturing of major classes and how has that had any effect on the ability of US skippers to compete on the world stage?

ISAF-RSD covers the following "international" classes:
Marblehead, IOM, 10R and "A" Class.

Of these, the Marblehead class might be considered "fractured" - however, it seems (to me) that the U.S. has managed to make whatever allowances are needed for any "M" owner who wants to participate on the world stage have the opportunity to do so - with or without having the "M" class be "international" in scope. Certainly having the "American" version of the class hasn't limited the ability of any skipper to compete. They "may" simply have multiple keels (length) and a specific number of rigs to be selected and taken to an international event. I would submit that any U.S. skipper with deep pockets can easily take part - given he can "afford" to play. Obviously size, design, weight and the national travel issues due to the September 1991 New York terrorist attack have farm more impact on getting a boat and skipper to an event on any sort of limited budget.

Excluding the IOM (1 meter) class, I would offer the other three "international" classes certainly sail here in various levels of participation, but are not growing like the IOM class has and is. As admitted by some IOM sailors - it's just a lot easier to travel with that size of boat. Given that ISAF-RSD has no impact on those specifications, and given the true number of "M" Class competitors that have attended the "M" Class World Championships in the last decade, your suggestion of exclusion of U.S. skippers doesn't seem to be valid.

Just a viewpoint of differences..... I suppose, but I would really like to see a list of skippers who felt they were kept from competing due to the "differences" in the class rules.

Thanks for the info on the jibstay attachment point. As you note, with modern technology, is that requirement still valid and needed? Note that "yardarms" are in rather short supply for those who break the RRS so we had to go to penalty turns.

Cheers, Dick
Dick L. is online now Find More Posts by Dick L.
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 16, 2014, 03:51 PM
DF65/No Excuses, Just Sailing!
Windward RC's Avatar
United States, TX, Richardson
Joined Feb 2011
667 Posts
Amen Rod,

When I started sailing IOMs in 1998, the class was just forming in the USA.

The only other international class was the M in the US.

It a shame to see yet another class splintered and broke off from the International scene...

All this when international classes like the RG65 is growing fast in the USA and the 10R has a chance to get going...

The MYA in England does it right.

They have way more people sailing yet they only have very few recognized classes., not 50 + in the AMYA ( and now apparently more).

Th e world is a village , especially with the advent of the internet...



Quote:
Originally Posted by RodACarr View Post
Re: Jibstay Height

One of the goals of proper class rule writing, is that class rules should not only control the basic speed generating aspects of the boat and its rig, but it should insofar as reasonably possible guide the configuration of the boat such that newcomers to the class are led/pointed toward a configuration that will be robust and successful. When the class was born in the 1930's, masts were all wooden, and by specifying a fractional rig, builders were guided toward a standing rigging configuration that supported the mast and gave good control over its shape.

With the advent of carbon fiber masts this may not currently be so important, but that notwithstanding, I would still be in favor of a maximum jib stay height measurement as that produces the standing rigging configuration that gives mast shape control and hence good performance that assists new skippers and old ones too in getting the most out of their sails and rigs.

While I am at it, let me state that I am in favor of adopting the International Rule and ending once and for all the petty, isolationist attitude that has infected the US skippers since AMYA formed. There is plenty of evidence that the fracturing of major classes has done little to promote the ability of US skippers to compete on the world stage. Might be that we've cut off our bowsprits to spite our faces!!!
Windward RC is online now Find More Posts by Windward RC
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 16, 2014, 04:21 PM
Registered User
Monterey Bay California
Joined Feb 2004
13,943 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Windward RC View Post
The MYA in England does it right.

They have way more people sailing yet they only have very few recognized classes., not 50 + in the AMYA ( and now apparently more).
You believe this cuts into overall participation numbers? I can see where it may dilute fleets but?
Aerominded is online now Find More Posts by Aerominded
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 16, 2014, 04:29 PM
FROM THE MIND OF A MADMAN
gpzy's Avatar
United States, CA, Los Angeles
Joined Apr 2007
3,250 Posts
I don't get any of this. On the AMYA web site I see "M" class rules, that include being able to sail in the U.S. as well as being able to sail internationaly.
If you want to be competitive sail the newest flavor of the month sailboat. If you want to take a knife to a gunfight sail an old design.
After all they are all "M" class boats.
gpzy is online now Find More Posts by gpzy
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 16, 2014, 04:29 PM
Registered User
United States, MA, Wenham
Joined Jan 2007
1,461 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by gpzy View Post
I don't get any of this. On the AMYA web site I see "M" class rules, that include being able to sail in the U.S. as well as being able to sail internationaly.
If you want to be competitive sail the newest flavor of the month sailboat. If you want to take a knife to a gunfight sail an old design.
After all they are all "M" class boats.
Wait.

WHAT?
breakwater is online now Find More Posts by breakwater
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 16, 2014, 05:01 PM
Registered User
SailingJunkie's Avatar
United States, CT, Essex
Joined Mar 2013
203 Posts
Oh there you go again GPZY, you swatted the hornets nest...

Would it be incorrect to assume that the M was dormant internationally as well but is now seeing a comeback in the UK? He we are talking about it on yet another forum string.

The name of the one day event here in CT later this year is going to be called the "Shut Up and Sail" regatta.

There is nothing stopping anyone from sailing any M from any era. Just have to have a venue and someone to push the little red button.

Sail more... Talk Less...

Just my two.

SJ
SailingJunkie is online now Find More Posts by SailingJunkie
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 16, 2014, 05:12 PM
FROM THE MIND OF A MADMAN
gpzy's Avatar
United States, CA, Los Angeles
Joined Apr 2007
3,250 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by SailingJunkie View Post
Oh there you go again GPZY, you swatted the hornets nest...

Would it be incorrect to assume that the M was dormant internationally as well but is now seeing a comeback in the UK? He we are talking about it on yet another forum string.

The name of the one day event here in CT later this year is going to be called the "Shut Up and Sail" regatta.

There is nothing stopping anyone from sailing any M from any era. Just have to have a venue and someone to push the little red button.

Sail more... Talk Less...

Just my two.

SJ
Go out and sail and have fun ! Thats the way it should be !
I am all for that.
If you have two sailboats on the water, you most likely will have a race !
gpzy is online now Find More Posts by gpzy
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 16, 2014, 05:29 PM
DF65/No Excuses, Just Sailing!
Windward RC's Avatar
United States, TX, Richardson
Joined Feb 2011
667 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerominded View Post
You believe this cuts into overall participation numbers? I can see where it may dilute fleets but?
It would be hard to quantify , but I suspect yes....

There are so many that start and then die off you have to wonder if there had been more consistency if there would have been more people sailing.

On the other hand you have to allow for innovation.

Thats how the IOM got started ( less expensive M), or even the Dragon Force, (affordable mass produced RG65 kit)

Its not an easy subject, but I dont think splintering an already exisiting class is the right answer... but I dont sail M's ... Cant afford em and I have no building skill to speak of ...

just my 2 cents
Windward RC is online now Find More Posts by Windward RC
Reply With Quote
Old Jul 16, 2014, 05:31 PM
Registered User
SailingJunkie's Avatar
United States, CT, Essex
Joined Mar 2013
203 Posts
Here is my knife... Just the basics but very sharp
SailingJunkie is online now Find More Posts by SailingJunkie
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools

Similar Threads
Category Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Sold Marblehead Class A+ Swing Rig Sails breakwater Boats (FS/W) 2 Feb 01, 2012 09:33 PM
For Sale Rc marblehead sail boat, 50/800 class, rare, fast. $450.00 PICTURES NOW SHOWN berniejorn Boats (FS/W) 3 Jul 13, 2010 05:08 PM
For Sale Marblehead sail boat, 50/800 class, rare berniejorn Boats (FS/W) 3 Jun 28, 2010 03:14 AM
Build Log Delta Class Marblehead Build 1967250s Sailboats 39 Feb 10, 2010 01:48 PM
For Sale Scalpel - Marblehead class Indubitably Boats (FS/W) 3 Feb 07, 2010 01:17 AM