Feb 04, 2015, 04:52 AM
Alex
Ukraine, Kyiv city, Kyyiv
Joined Feb 2012
351 Posts
Quote:
 Originally Posted by AEMontoya @Datos Yeah, I appreciate all the advice. I'll read up more on the hyperfocal stuff. I've already been reading about low fps and high bitrate as an alternative. I'm still very curious about this, as it seems the vast majority of nex users opt for high fps and high bit rate (namely, 60 fps, 28 Mbps). I still can't wrap my head around this one, and I wonder why you used 50fps for most of the video you posted, even though you say that 24 fps should nearly always be used.
Yes, you are right. I'm talking about 24fps but most of my videos are done with 50fps. This is due to the fact that most of the videos are done from copter and I usually expect some fast moving. But, I have to stop this practice and stick to 24FPS. Moreover, if you have some high frequency vibes on your camera gimbal - using 50|60FPS instead of 24 - would greatly eliminate those vibes. So, I'm mostly concerned about this matter. When a customer pays the money for aerial footage, I have to be sure that I'll bring any potential video problems down. But my latest practice shows that gimbal I use works perfectly. So, no need to have 50FPS any longer except when I need to slowdown wothout loosing quality in post.

If you usually fly and film slowly and you gimbal has no visible vidbes - use 24-30FPS.

When you have 25FPS with 28Mbit|s bitrate = 28 / 25 = 1.12Mbit|s for each frame. For 50FPS = 28 / 50 = 0,56Mbit|s

In both cases of FPS you are still working with the same 1920x1080 (2,073,600) pixels resolution. So, ideally, your bitrate should define each single pixel of the frame 25 or 50 times each second. Lets do the math:

Size of bitrate to define 1 FullHD frame = 2,073,600 pixels X 3 bytes = 6,220,800 bytes and multiply again by 8 to get bits = 49,766,400 bits or 49Mbits|s
Resulting for 25FPS = 49 X 25 = 1,2Gbit|s
Resulting for 50FPS = 49 X 50 = 2,4Gbit|s

The figures that we received are called uncompressed format where each pixel of the frame is exactly defined in each frame and each frame is a key frame. Some expensive or newest cameras allow uncompressed recording over HDMI.

Such huge bitrate numbers are hard to record and compression codecs are used to lower bitrates significantly.

Sony NEX AVCHD codec gives out 28Mbit|s max at max 50FPS. It means that it compresses 2,4Gbit|s so that it gets 85 times lower bitrate as an outcome. Usual algorithm of any compressing codec is to maintain as much REAL (math, truth, etc) information of most frame to frame changing pixels and throw out all other pixels (that are more equal, steady, etc) and substitute them with guessed (extrapolated) infromation basing the guess on the info from the stayed pixels. So, each time you open such video - codec shows you only small amount of real dots and all other pixels are guessed. I.e., for example, for each real pixel you have 10 virtual pixels around it that are created each time you open the video.

How do you think now - does it lower down you sharpness, contrast, color range and actual resolution?

It means that shooting with 25FPS would give you two times more real pixels. 50FPS would consist of 2 times less real pixels and all the rest would be extrapolated shifting your colors, sharpness and contrast down.

Just remember - the more real pixels you have - the better is a picture quality in all aspects.

You would be very surprised if you would see the real (2.4Gbit|s) video from Sony NEX. It would look very detailed and sharp. To get the idea - is to make 125 RAW photos in series, postprocess them for a better look, resize to 1920x1080 with no copmression (use tiff ot bmp) and to make a 5 second video from those frames. You would be surprised. That is why timelapse video even from a simple camera look much better than a video file created with any FullHD camera

GoPRO has higher bitrates, especially when protune is on. Thus, have much more real dots to work with.

How to join GoPRO and Sony together in one video:

Always create project based on the lowest FPS. If sony was used with 25FPS, make a 25FPS project and put sony and gorpo video there. Your program would automatically recalculate gopro video to 25fps there would be small to no difference in gorpo video.
Last edited by Datos; Feb 04, 2015 at 05:31 AM.
Feb 04, 2015, 01:49 PM
AEM
Bay Area, CA
Joined Sep 2009
1,154 Posts
Awesome breakdown. Thank you for that. You've encouraged me to fiddle around with 24fps. I really hope I can use this frame rate to produce some great footage. Here is a video I recently made with a GoPro set to 30fps (no ND filter or Protune), and it is similar to the videos I normally make. I tend to fly pretty slowly, and the majority of my footage is of stationary objects. However, I can see in the scenes at about 00:30 and 1:10s, for example, that there is some strobing and judder effect going on. The first scene is because I was flying a bit faster than normal (it was still pretty slow flight, however). The second scene was because I was panning (it also was pretty slow panning). This is where maybe I would need to use 60pfs instead of 30/24 fps. Any thoughts?

 Villa Montalvo II (3 min 47 sec)
Feb 04, 2015, 02:38 PM
Alex
Ukraine, Kyiv city, Kyyiv
Joined Feb 2012
351 Posts
Quote:
 Originally Posted by AEMontoya Awesome breakdown. Thank you for that. You've encouraged me to fiddle around with 24fps. I really hope I can use this frame rate to produce some great footage. Here is a video I recently made with a GoPro set to 30fps (no ND filter or Protune), and it is similar to the videos I normally make. I tend to fly pretty slowly, and the majority of my footage is of stationary objects. However, I can see in the scenes at about 00:30 and 1:10s, for example, that there is some strobing and judder effect going on. The first scene is because I was flying a bit faster than normal (it was still pretty slow flight, however). The second scene was because I was panning (it also was pretty slow panning). This is where maybe I would need to use 60pfs instead of 30/24 fps. Any thoughts?
First of all: do you see the same problems as on 0:30 and 1:10+ at your original footage?

The reason to ask is because it seems to be either the problem with youtube conversion or codec recompression after postprocessing.

your problems don't look like jittering or strobbing effects that ususally have equal repeating pattern for as long as a scene lasts. It more looks like your codec (or reconversion codec) stumble and lost a frame and goes further. In this case - check your original footage first, if it has the same effect - try to reformat SD-card (or change it) next time.

Video is good. And I can tell you that the mentioned problems are hard to see... what is obvious - is very narrow dynamic range. Skies are washed out to the extent when we see almost no information there and in overall video is overexposed.
 Feb 04, 2015, 03:07 PM AEM Bay Area, CA Joined Sep 2009 1,154 Posts @Datos You were right; the effects at 0:30 s and 1:10 s are not as noticeable in the original footage. It must be mainly related to uploading to YouTube. About the washed out skies. I didn't even notice that before, or think that it was a problem. I see what you mean, though. Do you think any of these options might help with the problem? -ND filter (I already have the BlurFix Air ND4) -Correcting in post (I have Sony Vegas Pro 11, and have no idea how this could be accomplished)
Feb 04, 2015, 03:34 PM
Alex
Ukraine, Kyiv city, Kyyiv
Joined Feb 2012
351 Posts
Quote:
 Originally Posted by AEMontoya @Datos You were right; the effects at 0:30 s and 1:10 s are not as noticeable in the original footage. It must be mainly related to uploading to YouTube. About the washed out skies. I didn't even notice that before, or think that it was a problem. I see what you mean, though. Do you think any of these options might help with the problem? -ND filter (I already have the BlurFix Air ND4) -Correcting in post (I have Sony Vegas Pro 11, and have no idea how this could be accomplished)
If to try to fix the skies with some physical thing - it should not be ND... it should be a gradient filter. It is half transparent and half ND. This would equalize the amount of light between sky and ground. But it is hard to use n copters where you constantly shift the view up and down. Therefore, some other solution should be chosen.

Neither you'll be able to bring skies back in post because you already lost the information in bright areas. (Unless you switch to RAW footage and can work with +|- 2 or 3EV range)

The best solutionfor GoPRO would be to:

1. Check if matrix metering is used in GoPRO to evaluate the correct exposure. If not - set it to matrix and give it a try.
2. If it wouldn't help - if there is EV compensation option in GoRPO you can set it to -0.7 or -1 and give it a try.
3. If it doesn't help much - turn Protune on. This would give you much less contrast (would equalize sky and ground to some extent) and much more infromation in brightest and darkest parts of the image that you'll be able to work with in post. You'll be able to darken the skies or brighten ground to much greater extent comparing to usual GoPRO mode.
 Feb 04, 2015, 03:40 PM AEM Bay Area, CA Joined Sep 2009 1,154 Posts Great. Thank you. I'm off to learn more about GoPro settings then. I've been needing to learn about Protune for a while now, anyway. Looks like I have a lot more learning to do.
Feb 04, 2015, 04:31 PM
Alex
Ukraine, Kyiv city, Kyyiv
Joined Feb 2012
351 Posts
Quote:
 Originally Posted by AEMontoya Great. Thank you. I'm off to learn more about GoPro settings then. I've been needing to learn about Protune for a while now, anyway. Looks like I have a lot more learning to do.
you wellcome.

I can tell you one trick about GoPRO.

Setting protune would give you a "flat" camera profile + forced bitrate to max possible in camera amount.

The next best step is to take GoPRO studio, add a video file here, go to edit video step. On this stage, you can go to your working folder and find your current video but in almost uncompressed format. It would be huge but the best to work with in any LE program.

GoPRO studio takes your mp4 footage from camera, uncompresses it to cineformPRO codec to make any adjustment without quality loss and compresses it back to mp4 on the final step of editing. But you can extract this uncompressed file and work with it in other programs.

Other LE programs would work with cineformPRO codec as native one (you can create a project and choose cineformPRO as initial codec) quickly and without dropped frames. But in order to get cineformPRO codec inside your LE (Premiere or Vegas) - you would have to install GoPRO studio premium or PRO version.
 Feb 07, 2015, 05:08 PM AEM Bay Area, CA Joined Sep 2009 1,154 Posts Aerial PHOTOGRAPHY Are there any recommend settings for aerial PHOTOGRAPHY using the nex 5n?
Feb 07, 2015, 05:54 PM
Alex
Ukraine, Kyiv city, Kyyiv
Joined Feb 2012
351 Posts
Quote:
 Originally Posted by AEMontoya Are there any recommend settings for aerial PHOTOGRAPHY using the nex 5n?
it depends what you are willing to photograph...

making panoramas is completely separate topic that consists of many rules and settings to deal with.

1. It is OK to use autofocus, expecially in daylight. Sony gives little to none focus mistakes.

2. Use RAW at max resolution

3. It is still better to use portrait mode, -3 contrast, 0 sharpness and 0 color + DRO at maximum level. Besides the possibility to create HDR files later, such settings would give you the larges light dynamic range. It is very important because the difference between shadow and light areas (sky and ground or lit ground and shadow ground) is very large and RAW file should contain max amout of information in both areas.

4. Use Aperture Priority mode. Since we are making photo from a copter, it means that DOF would not have to be much controlled. Like making a landscape photos when most of the frame is in focus. Thus, we can lock aperture to a required amount according to light and max optical resolution of our lens. And let camera decide on shutter speed. Use matrix metering to avoid strong over or underexposure of parts of the frame. ISO should be kept as low as possible as always. Autofocus is better to be set to central fixed point which we would be aiming the obect with.

The slowest shutter value that can be used on copter with no visible loss in sharpness caused by camera shaking depends of many factors. But in gerenal, if you are able to shoot video with your copter and gimbal at 24-30FPS , it wouldn't be a problem to have 1/30 shutter speed. Of course, the faster the better.

It is better to avoid auto ISO setting.

It is useless to have CPL filter on the lens couse CPL works only at certain angle to light rays.

But it is always good to have ND that would make longer exposure rather than taking photo at the fastest speeds like 1/4000. This is due to the physics. The longer we expose matrix to light, the better are final tonal range and light details.

Simple IR trigger for sony nex connected to RX and attached to camera and covered by a piece of thick paper for light protection would be enough to make photos from the switch of your TX.
Feb 07, 2015, 07:35 PM
AEM
Bay Area, CA
Joined Sep 2009
1,154 Posts
Quote:
 Originally Posted by Datos it depends what you are willing to photograph... making panoramas is completely separate topic that consists of many rules and settings to deal with. if you are asking about general photo, it is simplier. 1. It is OK to use autofocus, expecially in daylight. Sony gives little to none focus mistakes. 2. Use RAW at max resolution 3. It is still better to use portrait mode, -3 contrast, 0 sharpness and 0 color + DRO at maximum level. Besides the possibility to create HDR files later, such settings would give you the larges light dynamic range. It is very important because the difference between shadow and light areas (sky and ground or lit ground and shadow ground) is very large and RAW file should contain max amout of information in both areas. 4. Use Aperture Priority mode. Since we are making photo from a copter, it means that DOF would not have to be much controlled. Like making a landscape photos when most of the frame is in focus. Thus, we can lock aperture to a required amount according to light and max optical resolution of our lens. And let camera decide on shutter speed. Use matrix metering to avoid strong over or underexposure of parts of the frame. ISO should be kept as low as possible as always. Autofocus is better to be set to central fixed point which we would be aiming the obect with. The slowest shutter value that can be used on copter with no visible loss in sharpness caused by camera shaking depends of many factors. But in gerenal, if you are able to shoot video with your copter and gimbal at 24-30FPS , it wouldn't be a problem to have 1/30 shutter speed. Of course, the faster the better. It is better to avoid auto ISO setting. It is useless to have CPL filter on the lens couse CPL works only at certain angle to light rays. But it is always good to have ND that would make longer exposure rather than taking photo at the fastest speeds like 1/4000. This is due to the physics. The longer we expose matrix to light, the better are final tonal range and light details. Simple IR trigger for sony nex connected to RX and attached to camera and covered by a piece of thick paper for light protection would be enough to make photos from the switch of your TX.
Awesome! Thanks again, Datos!
Mar 09, 2015, 12:16 AM
Registered User
Joined Mar 2012
435 Posts
Something new... well it was shot on January 14, new cause the owner just recently released it.... with Alexmos 2 axis gimbal... The guy who edited did a great job using the shots...

 Siete Tesoros - 1/7 (5 min 34 sec)
Last edited by jocheluich; Mar 11, 2015 at 10:39 PM.
Mar 09, 2015, 04:03 AM
Alex
Ukraine, Kyiv city, Kyyiv
Joined Feb 2012
351 Posts
Quote:
 Originally Posted by jocheluich Something new... well it was shot last year on January... with Alexmos 2 axis gimbal... The guy who edited did a great job using the shots...
looks like if it was shot on GoRPO. too much sharpness and contrast applied. Looks punchy but starts to bother in a minute while watching. Great job on cutting.

as an opposite example: skyandmethod.com work about Kyiv (Ukraine) shot with Canon 5D and Canon 600D. AlexMOS 8bit. Hexa 960, DYS Eagle Eye. All gear (copter, gimbal) is built and tuned by me. This video get popular very quickly, it has even been shown on TV.

This video is representing that even Canon's in-camera .mp4 codec, which is more heavily compressed and not as detailed as Sony's AVCHD, is capable of producing excellent result and gives a perfect "DSLR feel". No need to raise sharpness or contrast cause it would kill dynamic range of the scene.

Therefore, don't attempt to get the look of GoPRO out of Sony NEX. It's DLSR-like picture is more pleasing to an eye

 Kiev aerial showreel 2015 - SKYANDMETHOD.COM (3 min 53 sec)
Mar 11, 2015, 06:15 PM
Registered User