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Old Dec 01, 2012, 01:02 AM
Silly Old Fart
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Hey Bob I am sure either this or another thread along similar lines would be a good move to keep us all in touch with the scene in OZ. It would be a shame to see the whole thing just go down the gurgler. Ian.
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Old Dec 01, 2012, 02:14 AM
Bob
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Thanks Ian,
Your comments are appreciated and worthy of consideration.

Perhaps you would consider giving us a potted history of the EC12 class in NZ and how the transition to the USA Mould was implemented and accepted?

Was there any collateral fallout?


All the best,

Bob.
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Old Dec 01, 2012, 04:58 AM
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Hey Bob I am sure either this or another thread along similar lines would be a good move to keep us all in touch with the scene in OZ. It would be a shame to see the whole thing just go down the gurgler. Ian.
Ian

I have been trying to put my head around the problems with Proper Measuring of the EC12, especially when Hull/Mould Fairings are not required..

Over time the Hull Shape has evolved & my guess is nothing actually meets the exacting standards of the Original Plug...

Some might question me on that one, but from the History I read suggests a Best Guess outcome..

To give me some Idea I did a comparison between the USA IE12 & Aust EC12 rules (Beam Station Only) & I have come to the conclusion that there aren't many differences overall.

I was super surprised that the USA & IE12 Moulds allow for such a big tolerance. My expectation was USA IE12 & NZL Mould would be exacting.

Surprised I am the rules are not the same.. Pre 2006 NZL hulls are clearly a lot beamier than every other even with the tolerances of + or - 2mm.

But for me I believe a compromise could be easily found by simply allowing for the Minimum & Maximum between the USA, IE12 & Australian Moulds..

Or perhaps even using the Minimum and the Maximum at each station then every boat Manufactured could compete on an even keel. I have attached a draft of each station based on the rules & worked an overall possibility.

There isn't much in it..

Not sure how you guys in NZL sorted it out but could you give us soem info on how the beamier pre 2006 boats were integrated & how they are accepted in the current setup.

Cheers

John
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Old Dec 01, 2012, 09:37 AM
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I'm guessing the photo is your completed Dumas. Looks great and enjoy your sailing.
Once a 12, always a 12
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Old Dec 01, 2012, 05:00 PM
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John - I have cut and pasted your post and inserted some hopefully helpful response to questions posed re Kiwi boats.


have been trying to put my head around the problems with Proper Measuring of the EC12, especially when Hull/Mould Fairings are not required..

Over time the Hull Shape has evolved & my guess is nothing actually meets the exacting standards of the Original Plug... The original hull form and tank test model is actually closest to the newest mold form. I say this having actually sat and looked at the original tank test model at St Petersburgh Yacht Club in Florida where it resides still

Some might question me on that one, but from the History I read suggests a Best Guess outcome..

To give me some Idea I did a comparison between the USA IE12 & Aust EC12 rules (Beam Station Only) & I have come to the conclusion that there aren't many differences overall. Most differences are at deck level with more minor differences below the waterline

I was super surprised that the USA & IE12 Moulds allow for such a big tolerance. My expectation was USA IE12 & NZL Mould would be exacting. Totally agree

Surprised I am the rules are not the same.. Pre 2006 NZL hulls are clearly a lot beamier than every other even with the tolerances of + or - 2mm.These boat hulls were also a lot heavier as our old class rule had them 1.5kg rater than the newer 1kg minimum

But for me I believe a compromise could be easily found by simply allowing for the Minimum & Maximum between the USA, IE12 & Australian Moulds..A simple and easily used solution

Or perhaps even using the Minimum and the Maximum at each station then every boat Manufactured could compete on an even keel. I have attached a draft of each station based on the rules & worked an overall possibility.

There isn't much in it..

Not sure how you guys in NZL sorted it out but could you give us soem info on how the beamier pre 2006 boats were integrated & how they are accepted in the current setup.When the kiwi molds have been update a simple clause (1.1.1) in the class rule allows all previously manufactured boats that come from an approved mold to continue as grandfathered hulls

Hope this helps John

It is disappointing the current state in OZ but progress needs to continue and get you guys back to National Status and integrate the new and old simply as done here in NZ and the USA where the grandfather rule also applies.

NZL1 as previously mentioned by CaptainBit (Ian HB) and built by Lakesedge has been owned by me for about 11-12 years now and still exists in my shed but is not currently in sailing trim but is definitely on the cards for restoration

Regards

Chris

Cheers

John
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Old Dec 01, 2012, 06:09 PM
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Thanks Ian & Chris for letting me know that there is at least one of my EC12s sailing in NZ.

I recently bought back one of my 1983 boats - sail no 39- and am presently sailing it with our local club causing mahem among a fleet of Soling 1M boats - they tend to get out of the way instead of risking an 11kg boat putting holes in their vacuum formed polystyrene hulls. I wonder how many of them will still be sailing in 30years time?

With regard to Ian's suggestion of using the NZ plug to make a mould I would consider this if it could be arranged but only after the current nonsense is resolved. As I said in my previous post, I have been away from model yachting for a number of years bleeding money on car race tracks only to come back into the current controversy.

From what I can see it appears to be a clash of personalities with both sides having a set position rather than any real technical differences between the boats. From what I understand there is very little difference between the performances of the hulls.

Sailing with the Solings their are condtioins where there is even not a lot of difference between the performance of an EC12 and a Soling.

Regards
Kevin
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Old Dec 01, 2012, 07:31 PM
Bob
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Hello Gents,

As I understand from the original submission presented to the ARYA by the AEC12OA, there were two major factors that subsequently, created the existing rift and lead to loss of National Status:

A. The AEC12OA requested autonomous control of the EC12 class within Australia; (no ARYA involvement)...
B. Existing EC12 moulds (Lakesedge, Mini Mariner etc) were to be destroyed or banished from future production.

To resolve this situation a number of solutions must be found:

(1) The AEC12OA has to accept the ARYA as being the Authority for RC Yachting in Australia (including the EC12 Class).
(2) The destruction or banning production from existing moulds and acceptance of the USA Mould held by AEC12OA need careful consideration.


During the life of this thread we have repeatedly asked for all parties to consider the EC12 Class “first and foremost” and not let egos or personalities take over. Sadly, little consideration was given to the latter.

Now we have an opportunity to unite with a fresh approach squarely aimed at open, honest and respectful discussion, as being demonstrated by the last few posts, solutions are certainly achievable.

To that end, I urge all to help, particularly with solutions for points 1 & 2 above.

Thank you,

Bob
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Old Dec 01, 2012, 08:17 PM
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A. The AEC12OA requested autonomous control of the EC12 class within Australia; (no ARYA involvement)...
B. Existing EC12 moulds (Lakesedge, Mini Mariner etc) were to be destroyed or banished from future production.

To resolve this situation a number of solutions must be found:

(1) The AEC12OA has to accept the ARYA as being the Authority for RC Yachting in Australia (including the EC12 Class).
(2) The destruction or banning production from existing moulds and acceptance of the USA Mould held by AEC12OA need careful consideration.

Bob


Bob

I think that is mostly where things have come unstuck.. It needs to get back to compromise & finding common ground to include & Encourage Participation.

My feeling is there isn't a huge divide in the Overall Measuring of the IE12 Mould... Which by all accounts is the same as the USA & NZL Mouldings..

When comparing the Rules for USA & Australia I have found small differences in Beam meaurement at several stations. Not huge by any measure with the highest being 13mm..

I have attached a spreadsheet showing what adjustments Each Country would need to make to their rules on Beam Measurement to include everybody.. Pre 2006 NZL Boats I will await info from others before possibly stepping on toes..

For me the USA & Australian Rules are far closer & more flexible than the IE12

The Only concern I have with the IE12 Measurement is where the rules cover the Keel Bulb

5.1.9. Maximum keel width after joining of the hull shall be governed by the mould.

I find it difficult to fathom how a boat can be measured without a Fairing of the Keel being provided at every event. To check measure a boat using this IE12 Rule the Mould needs to be made available at every event.

A Far Better & Simpler way would be to measure an existing boat & then set a Gauge @ a known width & it becomes simple to measure.

Who is to say a skipper doesn't accidentally make adjustments to this area that can effect performance.

Australia Currently use a Gauge system. I suppose this is where the IE12 Hull has been requested to assess areas such as this.

For Mine I believe a Minimum Overall Weight is Far more practical to measure at the Lake & each country can set their own.

Each Skipper can choose to build his boat to the Minimum & have ability to ADD corrector Keel weights to bring up to Spec depending on country in which the Boat is being sailed. All that is required is 2 Bolts cast into the Initial Pour (allowing corrector weights to be added & fixed in place as required).


These are perhaps some of the compromises each State & Country need to Make if Ever they would like the EC12 to return to National Class Staus & perhaps one day International Status..

For Now we need to rid the Class of all the Petty Politics & Grasps for Power.. It needs to come back to the Boat itself & where the differences are. From there compromises & common graound can be found..

Cheers

John
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Old Dec 01, 2012, 10:01 PM
Bob
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Thanks John,

You have provided a solid foundation to start the rebuild process, now it's up to the current ARYA approved builders to join together and continue towards a workable solution that meets the needs of ALL EC12 Owners.

Kevin, Rob and Colin lets hear from you. This is not an easy fix and will take many years before Nation Status can be requested.

Regards,

Bob
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Old Dec 01, 2012, 11:06 PM
Bob
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Well caught John,

It's nice to be able to highlight the achievements of the founders of the EC12 Class to whom we owe a debt of gratitude. The following link accesses an article relating to the early History and the fellowship bond linking Australia and New Zealand (and NZ1), compiled and written by ARYA Historian, Mr. Stephen Crewes:
http://www.radiosailing.org.au/our%2...kiwi/index.htm

Enjoy.
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Old Dec 02, 2012, 02:58 AM
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Well caught John,

It's nice to be able to highlight the achievements of the founders of the EC12 Class to whom we owe a debt of gratitude. The following link accesses an article relating to the early History and the fellowship bond linking Australia and New Zealand (and NZ1), compiled and written by ARYA Historian, Mr. Stephen Crewes:
http://www.radiosailing.org.au/our%2...kiwi/index.htm

Enjoy.
Stumbled across that one after I had a call from Steve a little while back.

Thought CaptainBit might get a kick out of the History.



Not sure if this has ever been done before but I thought it important to list ALL of the current EC12 Rules I have located (Aust, USA & NZL). All Side by Side

For comparison I have also included the IE12, in the event it ever decides to seek proper recognition within the EC12 Class in Australia, by following the approrpiate process.


The USA Rules are the ones effective from 2013...


Cheers

John
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Old Dec 03, 2012, 08:22 PM
Bob
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Great effort John,

For my money, you have the answer for a workable solution, but don't forget the fallout from the recent attempt to change the Class Rules where a few owners found it necessary to complain, insult and make demands on the ARYA. Had they bothered to studied the intent and benefits of accepting USA and NZ produced boats a little closer, we wouldn't be in this position now!

The next proposal, if one ever eventuates, will need a combined effort and involvement by ALL owners to unite in one common goal "Class first and foremost"; if the owners are not willing to participate, there is no point continuing. Perhaps a "cool off" period is warranted to allow everyone an opportunity to reflect and reevaluate?

As we have continually championed throughout the life of this forum thread, "with compromise there is little that can not be resolved"; it just takes respect and consideration for the class!

Regards,
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Old Dec 03, 2012, 08:46 PM
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Bob, The iEC12 Regatta went well to Central Coast MRC. Peter Morris won the Scratch racing, Bob Tonge won Handicap Racing. The racing went well, they received 8 boats. I when up there and took books.

Henry
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Old Dec 03, 2012, 09:06 PM
Silly Old Fart
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Viking50 View Post
Perhaps you would consider giving us a potted history of the EC12 class in NZ and how the transition to the USA Mould was implemented and accepted?Bob.
Hey there Bob and all readers here.
Yes I would be happy to tell you the story of EC12`s in NZL.
I may take me a week or so as my son is visiting from Japan and I will wait until he leaves so I can devote some time to writing. It won`t happen overnight but it will happen as Rachael says....
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Old Dec 03, 2012, 09:17 PM
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Bob

The sad unfortunate part of this whole thing is I am NOT AN EC12 OWNER..

Not for the want of trying...

No disrespect to past owners but to pay $3000 plus... for an EC12 regardless of heritage is rediculous.. It is still a 20+ Year Old Boat.. And a Boat the Owner wants to Openly Ban within 5 years... I doubt he would post the orignal manifesto explaining his initial ie12 Rules...

So Yes I believe I am left with little option but to look at the Newer Hull Shapes...

I see need to allow for Multiple Manufactuers, and this is a necessary compromise.. That is to say existing Australian Mould can & should be allowed to continue production while they remain viable..

I even believe US & NZ Hulls should be able to be registered in Australia..

USA covers this off simple..
  • 3.0 HULL 3.1 Hulls shall be obtained only from class authorized manufacturers.

All that is needed is a List of Manufacturers from Each Country to verify the bona Fides of each Imported Hull.

Alongside a measurement this should be sufficient to Register in Australia..


The Keel area will require the most evaluation as nobody seems to know exactly how wide it should be nor its' true shape.

Personally I believe a Lines Plan taken from the Original Plug would be a far better option than basing everything on a mould that nobody can gain access too..

Maybe NZL & IE12 have gone way beyond what could be considered common sense.

Lets Compare


USA
The East Coast 12-Meter Model Yacht is a restricted design model yacht class.
IE12 & NZL

1.1.2 The New Zealand EC12 Class is a One Design Radio controlled racing class.


(b) The Inter Eastcoast 12 Meter One Design (hereinafter referred to as the IE12), is a one-design radio controlled racing class.



Now this might seem odd but the USA & IE12 & NZL EC12 Mould are supposedly Identical.

The Glaring different Approach..

USA appears flexible & open to a degree of compromise, with restriction..


Australia has the similar One-Design terminology but allows a degree of acceptable tolerances in measurement similar to the USA.

Also

USA Waterline Length... NZL/IE12 Minimum Weight. Why would Identical Hull Shapes have a different approach when the view we are having shoved down our throats by Mr M is of a Unified International Class. Everybody has to play be the SAME Rules.


So I remain confused with the Agenda of Mr M & his association. Is this the beginings of a Takeover of the US Class by Mr M & NZL ??.




My simplistic approach is just that SIMPLISTIC. It may not cover all aspects..

I would suggest perhaps drafting a List of 20 or so questions for each Faction. Let them answer them simply & succinctly.

Rid the Class of the Self Indulgent & Self-Serving Ramblings.. Set the answer to less than 50 words.. And lets see what each faction can produce & what compromises they are willing to make.

The First Questions I would ask are..
  • Who do you recognise as the National Authority for Radio Sailing in Australia, For which Classes and WHY.
  • In formulating Rules for Each Recognised Class within Australia, which authority should be the final adjudicator for any disputes & why?


Now lets see if they have the fortitude to answer openly without the My Way or NO Way Attitude..

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