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Old Nov 11, 2010, 09:21 PM
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Near Andover, Southern England
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When does a loosely copied design become your own?????

Why do i ask, well, i kinda touched on this a while ago, but lets say you take a well known model design. increase the chord say 10%, then maybe shorten the moment by 20%, and while your at it chop a bit off the nose too. slightly re profile the tail feathers, give it a new airfoil section, leading edge slats,and a 'fatter' look by widening the fus 15%. Use many of your own pet construction features (wing fixing, spar layout, tail structure etc) and finally, for good measure make the whole thing 50% bigger. Now, it still kinda looks LIKE the original design, but everything is modified significantly - so, can you now call it your own design - or at least be justified in giving the changling a new name?????

How do you feel about that? cos thats what i have done to the Red Zephyr design and i don't know whether to feel embarassed with my butchery or smug and pleased that i've produced a new creation.

Question is, is it now MY design, needing a new name? or just a (heavily) modified Red Zephyr??????????? wrestling with my conscience here........

Oh, in case you're wondering whats NOT been touched, well I think the undercarriage is close to original spec - apart from the 50% increase and the windows are unchanged (though most folks do em differently anyhow).
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Last edited by Rick.; Nov 11, 2010 at 09:34 PM.
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Old Nov 11, 2010, 11:50 PM
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Canberra, Australia
Joined Nov 2002
436 Posts
I reckon you could call it yours.

So how does it fly?
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Old Nov 12, 2010, 02:00 AM
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Southampton ,England
Joined Oct 2006
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Call it a 'Rick Zephyr'.

Make up a name and give the purist a headache trying to find it in the sam records.

Give us a pic and well tell you if its ugly or not.
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Old Nov 12, 2010, 04:31 AM
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Bradford West Yorkshire, UK
Joined Apr 2010
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Never does. When asked what it is, "Well it's a - - - - but I've - - -"

The great "Bod" always acknowledged originals "Mini Super" etc..

Regards Ian.
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Old Nov 12, 2010, 05:23 AM
Bob Imp
UK, Cardiff, Cardiff
Joined Nov 2006
360 Posts
Yes, that`s about the best answer. I scratch build a lot of vintage era models from the plans but I rarely stick to the original building methods other than to use the original outlines. The end product nearly always looks like the original but incorporates my own touches. I don`t claim that these are always improvements, but they do personalize the model to my own taste. It`s a hobby! My model, My rules! even if this approach is not too popular with "purists"!
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Never does. When asked what it is, "Well it's a - - - - but I've - - -"

The great "Bod" always acknowledged originals "Mini Super" etc..

Regards Ian.
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Old Nov 12, 2010, 07:54 AM
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Charlotte, NC
Joined Jan 2004
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I've done the same with a Quaker, started with a redesign of Quaker Flash that I built in the mid 80's. I took those plans and blew them up, made significant changes and ended up called my creation a Quaker 2000 since it was the year 2000 that I ended up cleaning up and redrawing the plans that year.

In my research I know who produced the plans I used and they have long gone out of buisness but I never have found who penned the original Quaker plans. I seems that many people took the basic Quaker design and redrew them to create various different sizes and versions.

Call it your own but you 'll be reminded by people that the original was not your own, rightly so.
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Old Nov 12, 2010, 08:15 AM
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Joined Jul 2005
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Many times here I have found that in the age of the computer, the whole new A/C uses the older name, but with new electronics and powerplant. It is not legal for Old-timer competition via SAM or any other organization but they still yell "Unfair"

Wm.
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Old Nov 12, 2010, 08:35 AM
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If it is not legal how can they say unfair, are they allowing it to compete?
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Old Nov 12, 2010, 10:40 AM
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Staffs, UK
Joined Nov 2003
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So basically if people who see it ask "What on earth have you done to that poor old Red Zephyr ?" it ain't yours yet.

But if instead they say "What's that, I've never seen anything like it ?" then it's probably turned into your own design .

But I'd probably still call it something like a "Zephyr 2010".

Steve
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Old Nov 12, 2010, 11:32 AM
AMA7224 LSF1832
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Originally Posted by Evan D View Post
....... I never have found who penned the original Quaker plans........
If you mean the original original, the Quaker Flash is attributed to Maxwell Bassett who also designed the Miss Philly series. The Flying Quaker and the Super Quaker are Matt Kania aircraft designed while working for Megow Models as Chief Engineer and Designer. Notes I found say Kania assisted on the design but they don't say who he assisted nor how he became the designer designate.
The Quaker Flash is not the same model as the Flying Quaker.There are design and engineering differences even though they appear nearly the same. Of course the Super Quaker is a totally different bird as seen in photo.
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Old Nov 12, 2010, 11:45 AM
"Butchering Balsa since 1971"
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USA, TX, McKinney
Joined Dec 2003
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Y'know, if you take a 32 Ford, chop the top, pull the fenders off, replace the flathead with a small block chevy, and replace the original tires and wheels with chrome reverses, MOST people will call it a Hot Rod, Rat Rod or Highboy. They'll acknowledge the fact that she was BUILT from a 32 Ford, maybe go so far as to call it a 32 Ford highboy, but usually it's just "hot rod"-which is not a bad thing, as there have been several people thru the years whose automotive creations have been regarded as works of art, or at least doggone good engineering.
So, to answer, if it was me..I'd call it a "Hot Rod Zephyr"..kinda like "Hot Rod Lincoln"..except you wouldn't have a song named after the Zephyr..
Cash
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Old Nov 12, 2010, 11:46 AM
"Butchering Balsa since 1971"
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USA, TX, McKinney
Joined Dec 2003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leadchucker View Post
If you mean the original original, the Quaker Flash is attributed to Maxwell Bassett who also designed the Miss Philly series. The Flying Quaker and the Super Quaker are Matt Kania aircraft designed while working for Megow Models as Chief Engineer and Designer. Notes I found say Kania assisted on the design but they don't say who he assisted nor how he became the designer designate.
The Quaker Flash is not the same model as the Flying Quaker.There are design and engineering differences even though they appear nearly the same. Of course the Super Quaker is a totally different bird as seen in photo.
Oooh!! Oooh oooh ooh!!! I like that Super Quaker!!
Cash
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Old Nov 12, 2010, 01:21 PM
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Canada, AB, Edmonton
Joined Oct 2004
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Quote:
So basically if people who see it ask "What on earth have you done to that poor old Red Zephyr ?" it ain't yours yet.

But if instead they say "What's that, I've never seen anything like it ?" then it's probably turned into your own design.
About as good a way to decide as any, ISTM.
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Old Nov 12, 2010, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by CashRC View Post
Oooh!! Oooh oooh ooh!!! I like that Super Quaker!!
Cash
Shhhhhh!!!!! It's a little seen sleeper with retract (non-plural retracts??),Goldberg Sailplane like empennage and a 76"/790 sq.in. undercambered polyhedral wing. Flys great and she is going to get a refit with a Super Cyke or large intake sideport Ohlsson after having been a glow C Cabin class model for 25 years or so.
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Old Nov 12, 2010, 02:21 PM
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Near Andover, Southern England
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thanks guys, so the jury's still out then, maybe until i can post a few shots of the finished airframe. The main aesthetic you would notice is the original RZ has a long thin look - like a wakefield open rubber model, whereas, my 'version' is much stockier as an overall impression.
I guess all our 'conventional' planes of the cabin design really have only a limited range of stretchable proportions you could morph one design into another with a few inches added or taken here and there, then a re-positioning of the whale shaped outline and presto, you've turned one vintage design into another.

Look at it another way............... the RZ fuse structure could be re-outlined into practically ANY existing cabin old timer, or indeed into a scratch built. The wings are about as 'Standard' construction as you can get - i.e. two main spars one rear spar, 30% leading edge top sheeting, and a thin TE sandwiching the rib ends. capstrips if you wish! (therefore not the same construction as the original RZ wings).

So, it could be said, with only slight tongue in cheek, that you are all just flying modified Red Zephyrs.......Lol.

Attached is a shot of my original and mini (1/2 size) RZ's the 'big 'un' will be slightly further modded. So, if i hadn't told you - what would you say these models are a design of????
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Last edited by Rick.; Nov 12, 2010 at 02:32 PM.
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