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Old Nov 05, 2009, 10:26 AM
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Afton VA
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Originally Posted by Steve Boone View Post
Here's my last proposal. A measly 26 hrs of flight time + plus landings. Plus, requirements for contest style to go to 85% and 95% later. What this is going to cause is probably a change the Titanium level if we keep going. Otherwise this program is going to just be fodder for the, "I told you I could do this in a month or two" crowd. My intent wasn't to make a "second best program". In fact, quite the opposite. I wanted it to be the hardest program. I'm trying to do my best to please all that I can. I'm to the point I'm not too happy with it though. At what point should we expect people to actually put in some time and do some flying? When do we stop treating this like it's a beginners program? Maybe that's the problem. Maybe I should have a beginners program as well. Then I could have a beginners program (Ed Anderson had a good proposal for one), a slope program, a sportsman's program and then if you decide to compete you could join the LSF. Now if all of those fell under one roof at some point we would have a true SIG for soaring, not just individual groups. Maybe it's time I talk to the LSF board again. After all look what happened the last time I asked a simple question. The SSP was born. Maybe I should start my own competition program and change our name to the International Soaring Society.
I don't see any "OR" in there. Is one side one part and the other side the or part?
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Old Nov 05, 2009, 11:54 AM
founder of the SSP
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Walkerton, Indiana
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There is no "or". It's "do it all" from here on out. We have ended the "this or that" format. If slope gets it's own program we will re-do Bronze possibly. Then the only "this or that" format will be in Copper. That remains to be seen.
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Old Nov 05, 2009, 02:46 PM
turn, turn, turn.
Athol, Massachusetts
Joined Oct 2005
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I'm with you Steve!

(Just a word or two of encouragement).
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Old Nov 05, 2009, 07:01 PM
3 Sons - Legos and Lift
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Grand Rapids, MI
Joined Apr 2004
565 Posts
Launch windows?

Have we abandoned the idea of having some control of the launch window? I just looked at version 4 and don't see anything to keep someone from scouting for good air before doing the official flights for the contest tasks.

Tim
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Old Nov 05, 2009, 07:04 PM
Ricky Windsock
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USA, FL, Sanford
Joined Nov 2008
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Originally Posted by Steve Boone View Post
I didn't. It's right where it always was. Just only 2 "contests" per set as opposed to 3. You wanted to see less flight time. By cutting one off of each set I dropped a total of 51 minutes just from the contest style task sets.
Why would you want to reduce the time on the precision section of your proposed task set?
In any case I thought I would mention that a couple of facts about air time and degree of difficulty when comparing the LSF program to the SSP may be helpful.

The entire LSF Program from Level 1 through 5 can be accomplished with less than 30 hours of recorded flying time. Yet in over 40 years of concerted effort by thousands of soaring pilots only 125 have found their way to the "holy grail" of Level 5.

You are suggesting that reducing the hours required for the Silver Level to 26 reduces the SSP to to a "beginners" program. That is just not right. Silver as you are now proposing STILL represents nearly as many hours of stick time as the entire LSF program.

In fact Copper at 2 1/4 hours plus Bronze at 8 1/2 hours plus your current proposed Silver at a "measly" 26 hours equals a total of 37 hours. Much more than the entire LSF program and we haven't even tackled Gold or Platinum yet.

Steve - you are going to be forever regarded as a pioneer in this hobby because you are putting in the hard work to MAKE the SSP happen while most just watch and hope somebody else does something good. I just want to see all the effort you are giving result in success of the program and I believe it can if you don't over do it. You don't have to prove anything to anyone in the old LSF by making the SSP 4 times as much work. You and Joe are already doing more for the future of Sport Soarers skill building than anyone else has since the LSF was created 40 years ago. Just don't "kill it" by making the program impossibly difficult for the mainstream to tackle. You and I will go at it regardless of what the levels require, but it takes a lot more than a handful of pilots to make this program a success.

Gordon

PS. The contest style task sets are excellent because they require precision piloting. I like the way the Platinum is proposed also by the way. That is the spirit. Encourage participation.
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Old Nov 05, 2009, 09:55 PM
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east liverpool, oh
Joined Mar 2008
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I always wanted a program without contest, but i didn't think it would be that difficult
just in the first level.
My concern would be if i acomplished these levels, would this program have the longevity
that the LSF has. I would hate to spend all that time an in ten or twenty years it was all
for not. just my opinion, keep up the good work an I hope it all works out.
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Old Nov 06, 2009, 08:36 AM
Balsa breaks better
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Buchanan Mi
Joined Apr 2005
2,134 Posts
Ssp - LSF

Seems we are comparing apples to oranges. The only thing we have in common with the LSF is the desire to improve ones flying skills. The only thing we have from the LSF is their support in the program and the greatly appretiated help with the web site, Thank you Dennis!
The more structured flying one does the better they get. This is my experince and a lot of you know that I need more of it
Agian I mention Steve's early thoughts, it ain't going to be easy

Joe
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Old Nov 06, 2009, 10:14 AM
founder of the SSP
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Walkerton, Indiana
Joined Jul 2004
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I would like to also add. With the LSF you can only fly one flight a day and you may have to wait a while to go to your next contest. This alone stretches things out. With the SSP you can fly as many tasks in a day as you wish, any day that you wish. This speeds up the completion of task sets. So as Joe stated, this really is apples and oranges in the way the programs work. Not that one is better than the other, just different. Competition adds an added pressure of being under the gun so to speak with others watching. The SSP does as well for many of us although maybe not to the same extent. We're both 5 level programs currently. (titanium is just a way to signify those who do the program more than once so really shouldn't count as a level) Neither program is intended as an "everyone will finish" type program. That's why the upper levels earn the added respect and/or admiration of others. Because of the extaordinary efforts of those that get there.

Quote:
Originally Posted by emory wright View Post
I always wanted a program without contest, but i didn't think it would be that difficult
just in the first level.
My concern would be if i acomplished these levels, would this program have the longevity
that the LSF has. I would hate to spend all that time an in ten or twenty years it was all
for not. just my opinion, keep up the good work an I hope it all works out.
I really don't think Copper is all that difficult, except to maybe a raw beginner. In which case anything you create will seem difficult. Bronze is a bit tough, because of the long flights. This is fitting as most people at this stage are trying to see how long they can stay airborne. After that thrill wears off a bit (with some, I never get tired of it) they're looking for different kinds of challenges. Which Silver addresses with ladders, add em ups, contest style, etc. Gold is not necessarily going to be longer total flight time. The tighter landing skill requirements, higher point requirements (contest style), etc. will be what makes it harder.
As far as putting work into a program and wondering if it will be around in 20 yrs. Well, nothing and I mean nothing is guarenteed in life. However, I think there's enough interest to keep it alive. The biggest hurtle right now is getting the program completely outlined. A tedious job at best. I plan to have this done by Dec 31 this year. I have other things to do than just this program and have got to get back to "real life" soon. I've given a large part of my time this year to getting this off the ground.
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Last edited by Steve Boone; Nov 06, 2009 at 11:03 AM.
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Old Nov 06, 2009, 01:20 PM
Pompano Hill Flyers
Radian's Avatar
Coral Springs FL
Joined May 2002
682 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Boone View Post
I would like to also add. With the LSF you can only fly one flight a day ........
Where do you see that?

I only see a restriction to number of flights in a day with regard to substituting a second TD flight in lieu of the Slope Duration task....

Quote from Voucher back
"* A second thermal flight which meets the basic Thermal Duration requirement for this Level may be flown in lieu of the Slope Duration requirement. However, the second thermal flight may not be flown on the same day. "
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Old Nov 06, 2009, 01:50 PM
founder of the SSP
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Walkerton, Indiana
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You're right I forgot about that. I stand corrected. I was thinking more along the lines of mutiple same flight types.
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Old Nov 06, 2009, 08:58 PM
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Redcliff Alberta
Joined Jul 2008
584 Posts
How about we just send a $5 money order in and instantly qualify for each level???? This is getting a bit too much like the school system where the standard is lowered so that every one can pass. Are we that poor as a people that the world will end if failing to complete a set of soaring task's ?

I was happy with the ver. with 1000 hour's,but hay that's just me.

Steve, you have my full support with any of the level's as you and Joe see fit.

Any thought's on a task set in Gold that is required to fly a 2m woodie KIT?

Ken
SSP #6
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Old Nov 07, 2009, 04:05 AM
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east liverpool, oh
Joined Mar 2008
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I'm not trying to lower the standards for the SSP,i fill this program has no beginners.
I would leave that word out of the program an just use numbers or metal for the levels like you are doing. I don't mind the difficulty i just have a hard time with copper being
called a beginner. I know beginner may only apply to the program but in no means do i
fill i'm a beginner.I think it devalues the pilot that can fly scale ships that are going alot faster than thermal birds.he may not thermal as long an land spot on but he or she wouldn't be classified as a beginner. on a broader view of skill in rc soaring SSP is a
advanced or intermedate program from the start. To accomplish copper i would'nt call
that person a beginner, just a level I or copper pilot. keep up the hard work Steve your doing a very good job, i'm shore it will all work out. just my opinion
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Old Nov 07, 2009, 06:49 AM
founder of the SSP
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Walkerton, Indiana
Joined Jul 2004
1,554 Posts
KEN: Thank you for speaking up and saying enough is enough. This is being pushed to the too easy side of things for my liking as well. Personally I like 3 the best and 4 isn't too bad I guess. So here's a combo of them both. Meet version #6.
EMORY: You have a good point. So I have dropped the classifications after the level names on the site. From now on they simply are what they are. Copper, Bronze, Silver, etc. no more, no less.
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Old Nov 07, 2009, 12:08 PM
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Redcliff Alberta
Joined Jul 2008
584 Posts
I also liked ver.3, but #6 is a real good replacement. A fair amount of airtime
and variaty to the task set's.

As there is little time left for the remaining level's, can we put this one in the book's?


Ken
SSP #6
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Old Nov 07, 2009, 12:15 PM
Pompano Hill Flyers
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Coral Springs FL
Joined May 2002
682 Posts
Steve,

In reducing the number of contest flights, you need to adjust the score too.

Two perfect 7 minute flights with 100 point landings will add up to only 1040 points. You and achieve 1170 in just two flights. I kind of liked the three rounds....

Radian
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