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Old Oct 02, 2012, 03:04 PM
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Keil kraft champ

Do you remember the Kiel Kraft Champ? Black Hawk Models working with Den Saxcoberg are looking at producing the Champ. We need your input; would you be interested in buying the kit?
What would you like to see in the kit besides a control handle and lines? Please let us know what would make this kit a must have kit to you.

ws- 20"
power .75cc
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Old Oct 03, 2012, 06:18 AM
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Originally Posted by BLACK HAWK MOD View Post
Do you remember the Kiel Kraft Champ? Black Hawk Models working with Den Saxcoberg are looking at producing the Champ. We need your input; would you be interested in buying the kit?
What would you like to see in the kit besides a control handle and lines? Please let us know what would make this kit a must have kit to you.

ws- 20"
power .75cc
I'd buy your kit straight off if it included the redhead Taipan 1.5cc diesel that mine did when I finished building it in 1959. Flew beautifully.

Otherwise I can't really see why anyone would need a kit for one. The plan and templates are available free on Hippocket and Outerzone and a few sheets of balsa are all that's required.

I'd only buy a kit for complex models.

Ray
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Old Oct 07, 2012, 03:40 PM
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I'd buy one- several diesels on hand to suit and little time. How about a Sabre Trainer also- those are still popular with the guys down in Oz or so I understand?
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Old Oct 07, 2012, 03:54 PM
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I think for Sure Starts it will need a much longer nose to balance. I think that is going to be too big and heavy an airplane for any but the more powerful glow 049s. Note comments above about flying them on 1.5cc diesels.
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Old Oct 07, 2012, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim Thomerson View Post
I think for Sure Starts it will need a much longer nose to balance. I think that is going to be too big and heavy an airplane for any but the more powerful glow 049s. Note comments above about flying them on 1.5cc diesels.
IIRC it was designed around the ED Bee 1.0cc diesel with rear induction and an integral tank, a fairly heavy combination.

A lightweight 1.5 pb diesel suits it nicely although I understand that the local SAMS chapter has a racing class around them with sideport MP Jet 0.6cc diesels.

Ray
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Old Oct 07, 2012, 10:42 PM
Greggles47
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Originally Posted by JKinTX View Post
I'd buy one- several diesels on hand to suit and little time. How about a Sabre Trainer also- those are still popular with the guys down in Oz or so I understand?
The Sabre is popular in Sydney as a fun racing class.

They're much too fast for training anyone on with a PB 2.5 drinking high nitro fuel and running small props.

On 46'8" lines they can be pretty quick, pity they glide like a grand piano.



G
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Old Oct 08, 2012, 08:46 AM
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Originally Posted by greggles47 View Post
The Sabre is popular in Sydney as a fun racing class. On 46'8" lines they can be pretty quick, pity they glide like a grand piano.



G
Greg, they don't so much glide as plummet!
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Old Oct 08, 2012, 12:31 PM
Sticks, Tissue & old Diesels
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I learned to fly CL with a Champ and an ED Bee, around 1957/8. It was a perfect combination and flew great. Just keep your arm and wrist straight, and success first time, even for a raw beginner with no help except a launcher.
However, I recently flew one (not mine) with a Frog 150. It still flew perfectly, but it was pretty fast. Too fast for a raw learner, especially as I underestimated the line length needed!
Rags, is right about the glide of course. Towards the end of the tank, you need to fly low, so that it does fall from too high! However, this would be true of any similar all-sheet plane. Team racers only glide because they're travelling so fast. They would glide far at Champ airspeed!
Brian
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Old Oct 08, 2012, 05:52 PM
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Working from the original plans they show a "Mills 75", "E. D. Bee" and a "D. C. Bantam 75 cc" engines.

Here in the states when we have a plane that glides like a rock, we do a "Hot Landing". That is we come about a little high and when the engine quits, we nose it down to maintain flying speed then pull out at ground level. One advantage to a plane that doesn't glide is, it is better in a little wind. A gliding plane with a dead engine will blow in on you, but a rock is looking for the ground in a hurry.

Larry
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Old Oct 08, 2012, 08:55 PM
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Originally Posted by BLACK HAWK MOD View Post
Working from the original plans they show a "Mills 75", "E. D. Bee" and a "D. C. Bantam 75 cc" engines.

Here in the states when we have a plane that glides like a rock, we do a "Hot Landing". That is we come about a little high and when the engine quits, we nose it down to maintain flying speed then pull out at ground level. One advantage to a plane that doesn't glide is, it is better in a little wind. A gliding plane with a dead engine will blow in on you, but a rock is looking for the ground in a hurry.

Larry
I have a couple of ED Bees sitting in the motor drawer, 2 original Mills P-75s and one Irvine all nice motors BTW.
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Old Oct 09, 2012, 12:00 AM
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Greg, they don't so much glide as plummet!
Powered lawn darts! You Oz guys are cool!
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Old Oct 09, 2012, 12:04 AM
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Originally Posted by greggles47 View Post
The Sabre is popular in Sydney as a fun racing class.

They're much too fast for training anyone on with a PB 2.5 drinking high nitro fuel and running small props.

On 46'8" lines they can be pretty quick, pity they glide like a grand piano.



G
46' 8" lines on a good PB .15?
Man, you Oz dudes are quick! Whew!
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Old Oct 09, 2012, 02:19 AM
Greggles47
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Well JK it is racing, and the aim, they tell me, is to go faster than the other bloke.

It is a low cost formula for fun so theres no exotic racing engines (hence PB's) no exotic materials, simply the Sabre trainer built to the plan.

Still the fast ones are around 22 - 23 secs/10 laps.

It has even attracted quite a number of non racing fellows to have a go.

Highly recommended.

Greg
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Old Oct 09, 2012, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by greggles47 View Post
Well JK it is racing, and the aim, they tell me, is to go faster than the other bloke.

It is a low cost formula for fun so theres no exotic racing engines (hence PB's) no exotic materials, simply the Sabre trainer built to the plan.

Still the fast ones are around 22 - 23 secs/10 laps.

It has even attracted quite a number of non racing fellows to have a go.

Highly recommended.

Greg
Not in any way being critical! I think it's a great idea.
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Old Oct 10, 2012, 08:21 AM
gcb
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Originally Posted by BLACK HAWK MOD View Post
Here in the states when we have a plane that glides like a rock, we do a "Hot Landing". That is we come about a little high and when the engine quits, we nose it down to maintain flying speed then pull out at ground level. One advantage to a plane that doesn't glide is, it is better in a little wind. A gliding plane with a dead engine will blow in on you, but a rock is looking for the ground in a hurry.

Larry
For those of us who fly over grass, how hot the landing determines how many flips the plane does when it hits the grass.

George

Edit: Almost forgot...Larry, glad to see you posting again. Welcome back.
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