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Old Mar 31, 2012, 03:43 PM
All under control, Grommit!
leccyflyer's Avatar
United Kingdom, Aberdeen
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinTatious View Post
If your point is that within a given number of humans there is a significant percentile who think "they know best" and desire to control and direct other towards the life THEY envision for them... Your point is valid.
No, my point is that the self-centred, self-justifying and self-ish ideology which underpins libertarianism is nothing more than a fringe belief system, which has never got within a country mile of ever forming a government.

It has some temporary appeal to teenage boys, with an over-simplistic view of the world, but most teens do grow out of those "me-me-me" ways of viewing society, by the time that they get the opportunity to enter a polling booth. That explains the dismal showing of libertarians in elections.
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 05:18 PM
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Lol.. As if those wishing to order others to their wills is not the ultimate in me me me self centeredness.
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 06:03 PM
All under control, Grommit!
leccyflyer's Avatar
United Kingdom, Aberdeen
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Originally Posted by MtnGoat View Post
Lol.. As if those wishing to order others to their wills is not the ultimate in me me me self centeredness.
Nope, that would be "us, us, us"

...and, by definition, not self-centered at all.
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 06:09 PM
Low, slow and dirty
maine
Joined Jan 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinTatious View Post
If your point is that within a given number of humans there is a significant percentile who think "they know best" and desire to control and direct other towards the life THEY envision for them... Your point is valid.

This is a description of tyranny. and yes that seems to be his point...
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by leccyflyer View Post
Nope, that would be "us, us, us"

...and, by definition, not self-centered at all.
Really? It's not *your* wishes you use to determine what you will support being imposed on others? Does hiding in the herd change your own responsibility for it being your own wishes?

Libertarians want things for other people. We want others to have the freedom to choose for themselves. When I argue I want Joe to be able to decide and act for himself, and somone else argues Joe should be doing what they want him to do, it's not exactly self evident that I'm the selfish one. After all, I argue for Joe's independence and self determination, whereas the other party wants his choices directed by law to suit themselves.
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 06:22 PM
All under control, Grommit!
leccyflyer's Avatar
United Kingdom, Aberdeen
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Originally Posted by MtnGoat View Post
Really? It's not *your* wishes you use to determine what you will support being imposed on others? Does hiding in the herd change your own responsibility for it being your own wishes?
Nope, I have precisely zero desire to impose my will on you. or anyone else.
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by Kenny Sharp View Post
I think the President knows more than you think he does.

People are allowed to have opposing viewpoints....whilst still being intelligent and knowing what they are talking about.
Then this makes him a liar, since if he knows the actual history of the 20's and is not, he wouldn't be telling lies like this about it.

The other choice, is uninformed.

Sure, people can have other opinions. But they cannot have their own facts.
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 06:24 PM
Low, slow and dirty
maine
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Originally Posted by MtnGoat View Post
Really? It's not *your* wishes you use to determine what you will support being imposed on others? Does hiding in the herd change your own responsibility for it being your own wishes?




Well the answer to the thread title would be...... LIAR...

but we already know that 95% of all politicians are....
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 06:26 PM
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Lyle, WA
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Originally Posted by Bruce Abbott View Post
You are absolutely right. If a 'free market' only exists when there is no state influence whatsoever, then The US has never had a 'free market'.

Now, please provide examples of states which did have a 'free market' completely devoid of influence.
Why would I defend a definition of free markets I don't defend to begin with?

So, if the US has never had a free market, how is Obama's claim valid?

How can *anyone* who thinks there has never been a free market turn around and blame the free market for the ills they perceive?
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 06:30 PM
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Lyle, WA
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Originally Posted by leccyflyer View Post
Nope, I have precisely zero desire to impose my will on you. or anyone else.
That's odd. Whose judgement are you using when you choose who to vote for?
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 06:33 PM
All under control, Grommit!
leccyflyer's Avatar
United Kingdom, Aberdeen
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Originally Posted by MtnGoat View Post
That's odd. Whose judgement are you using when you choose who to vote for?
I use my judgement when I choose whom to vote for. Whose judgement do you use when you choose who to vote for?
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 06:44 PM
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Lyle, WA
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So, you use your own judgement. Is your judgement about your wants, values, and desires...wether for yourself or 'society'?

Why, I use my judgement when I choose who to vote for. I have no need to hide in the herd because I don't claim that group action invalidates the moral responsibility for every single individual making the choices in that group.
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 06:57 PM
All under control, Grommit!
leccyflyer's Avatar
United Kingdom, Aberdeen
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Originally Posted by MtnGoat View Post
So, you use your own judgement. Is your judgement about your wants, values, and desires...wether for yourself or 'society'?
For society, recognising all along the way that the society is a collective, made up of individuals, with all of the responsibilities and benefits that entails.

So, contrary to your claims, it's not "my will" it is society's will. More often than not it most certainly isn't my will. The last election here was he first time in three quarters of a century that the party that I voted for that particular election had any sigh of any power. Having got it, they abused it, acted directly against my will, and that of lots of other supporters and may well virtually cease to exist next time round.

Quote:
Why, I use my judgement when I choose who to vote for. I have no need to hide in the herd because I don't claim that group action invalidates the moral responsibility for every single individual making the choices in that group.
Who do you actually vote for though?

Chances are that you vote for a party which has policies. Those policies do not call for the total abolition of the gubmint against which you rail with monotonous regularity. There is little or no difference in the ultimate result, other than if you rigidly vote for a libertarian candidate that the ideas are never actually put into practice, by virtue of struggling to get even 1% of the grown-up vote.

Maybe you can kid yourself, but you can't kid anyone else, that any vote that you cast for a candidate is no different than the vote anyone else casts for a candidate. If you want the sophilistic utopia of individuals only influencing what they themselves do, with no recognition of a society, or the individuals role in that, then Kirsty Walk will be presenting the next edition of Desert Island Discs in just over 11 hours time.
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 06:59 PM
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Lyle, WA
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Originally Posted by leccyflyer View Post
For society, recognising all along the way that the society is a collective, made up of individuals, with all of the responsibilities and benefits that entails.
Well here we have the nub of the matter...no matter *who* you claim your desires are directed towards, they are irrefutably yours. your will, your ideas, your values.
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Old Mar 31, 2012, 07:04 PM
All under control, Grommit!
leccyflyer's Avatar
United Kingdom, Aberdeen
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Originally Posted by MtnGoat View Post
Well here we have the nub of the matter...no matter *who* you claim your desires are directed towards, they are irrefutably yours.
Are are yours. The difference being that I recognise that society is the ultimate collective determinant of policy, laws, morals, and most human interaction, given that human beings are social animals.

So you won't catch me subscribing to the sophistry of that "I'm John Galt" nonsense, which could be more accurately paraphrased as the teen angsthem "You're Not The Boss Of Me!"
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