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Old Jan 29, 2007, 05:05 PM
pd1
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United States, MA, Haverhill
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copyright question

I was looking for a set of three views for someone when I went to the nether regions on my storage area.

I found a stack of model magazines from the thirties and forties.
Some are out of bussiness, some I don't know if they have changed names,and some are still published.
Fying Aces, Air Trails, Popular Aviation, 1929 Aero Digest, and Model Airplane News.

Can I share plans and pictures from these old magazines without violating copyrights?
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Old Jan 29, 2007, 05:43 PM
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i'd look up the copyright laws. They changed them back in 1970 or so, and some years the copyrights have expired, others have been extended 67 years.
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Old Jan 29, 2007, 06:55 PM
gram obsessive
United States, AZ, Tucson
Joined Mar 2005
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Copyright laws are to protect the financial and commercial interest of the copyright owner. Personal use is not covered by such laws. If you plan to reproduce and sell material that has a current copyright, you must obtain written permission. For your personally hobby use, and that of your friends, copyright does not apply.
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Old Jan 29, 2007, 06:59 PM
pd1
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Thanks, I wasn't planning to use them for commercial purposes.
I just thought there are some pretty nice planes in these magazines and others might want to see them, or use the plans and could I post some without running into a problem.
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Old Jan 29, 2007, 08:30 PM
internet gadfly
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Posting a scanned image to the internet is considered publishing and can violate copyright even though there is no money involved because theoretically you're depriving the copyright holder of revenue. With 60+ year old drawings it's likely that the owner hasn't had a financial return for a while but some publishers will make an issue out of it anyway. Often with art that old the publisher's response (if anything) is simply to demand that the drawings be removed from the site although they do have the legal right to sue. The newer the art is the more likely you are to get more than just a slap on the hand and if it's in a book that's still in print you could have some real trouble.
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Old Jan 29, 2007, 11:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pd1
I was looking for a set of three views for someone when I went to the nether regions on my storage area.

I found a stack of model magazines from the thirties and forties.
Some are out of bussiness, some I don't know if they have changed names,and some are still published.
Fying Aces, Air Trails, Popular Aviation, 1929 Aero Digest, and Model Airplane News.

Can I share plans and pictures from these old magazines without violating copyrights?
Sure, who are they going to go after?
Pd1 somewhere north of Boston.

Bill
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Old Jan 29, 2007, 11:32 PM
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Wilkes-Barre/Scranton, Pennsylvania, United States
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I've run into some problems at a local Copy Max. The people there refused to copy a plan for me. I wanted a copy to make templates for cutting parts. They also refused to enlarge a set of Fly R/C plans in spite of the disclaimer printed on the plan. They claim copyright infringement. I claim unintelligent workers.

BM
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Old Jan 30, 2007, 08:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scratchandbash
Sure, who are they going to go after?
Pd1 somewhere north of Boston.

Bill
No RCGROUPS.

I.e. if someone complains, RCgroups will get asked politely to delete the images.

Rcgroups might then decide to suspend the account..

HOWEVER.

Various legal actions I have been involved in have clearly demonstrated that what is the strict law, what is criminal law (where the state prosecutes) and what is civil law (where the plaintiff sues) and what is enforceable law (where its actually worth taking out an action, or possible to prove a case beyond reasonable doubt (criminal) or to the balance of probabilities(civil) are all very different things.

When your own presidents have in the past worked to the basis of 'credible deniability' - where the basis of action is to merely have a story that is sufficiently believable to avert prosecution, who are we to go against these illustrious men..

In te axct case in point, what is the worst that can happen?

Someone somewhere comes out of the woodwork and claims ownership of these drawings.

Is he correct? Chances are without a paper trail showing the ownership and rights of wherever they started from passing to him, he won't be able to prove it.

Let's say he thinks he can, and has pockets deep enough to fund a case.

Probably ALL you have to do is say to the judge 'this is a vexatious and litigious action: I made no money, and there are no damages to recover' - if the plaintiff cannot prove that he IS - or WAS making money out of the things, chances are the judge will throw the whole thing out and charge him costs, or if you are unlucky, will split the costs.

Most likely he would have a word with you, or your lawyer and say 'take the images down, and lets consider the matter closed' .He has better things to do.

However lets say your plaintiff is a mean spirited man with a lot of money. He argues that 'this sort of thing is rife on the internet, and lots of people are losing their livelihoods as a result'.

And the judge believes him enough and allows him to go for 'exemplary penalties ' a swingeing fine to set an example that will strike terror into the mud spattered trainers of any model airplane geek who dares violate the Sacred Copyright..

well. that is IIRC a jury trial, and a very expensive one, and you may need some lawyers (AMA?) and I doubt any jury is going to convict you of being a Menace to Society just because you put up an out of print drawing for one or two other geeks to use.

Most likely the judgment, at its very worst, would be 'yes, guilty technically, but we recommend no penalty, other than to remove the article'

Your plaintiff gets a one cent fine, and his costs, and you get your costs, and the judges attitude is that it serves you both right for being a pair of obstinate s who have wasted expensive court time.

In short, publish and be damned.

That's what I do. If anyone seriously objects, take it down and apologize, if they seem to heavy reasonable grounds. If not, tell them politely to stuff it.

"WITHOUT PREJUDICE
I do not see that the evidence you have been able to present, with respect, shows that the copyright of this material has passed inalienably and beyond reasonable doubt to your good self, and although, in principio I am prepared to comply with your directives to remove the material, until and unless I get evidence that my legal team (that's that pet cat, but don't say taht) consider to be incontrovertible, the dawigss will reamain.

Yours repectully,

A Geek"

The great thing about a letter like that, is that it says the important thing first, which means 'this is how I feel now, subject to today, and I may change my mind at any time'. So you can't be held to account.


Its reasonably polite

It sounds impressive enough to get him scrambling for a lawyer, who may smile, mostly because he realises he has a twit for a client and someone with a sense of humour across the court, and will make money out of it ..

and it never once says that you intend to break the law..merely that for the life of you, you remain convinced that a law has not been broken. People in the legal professions don;t mind how many laws you flout if you honestly believe they didn't apply, and you can come up with an expesnive explanation that satisfies a jury. Look at Nixon.

What they DON'T like is being given the finger tho. Puts their careers at risk.

In short

PUBLISH AND BE DAMNED
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Old Jan 30, 2007, 08:49 AM
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Ah Vintage1, that was lovely.
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Old Jan 30, 2007, 10:56 AM
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Tampere, Finland
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In a lot of cases, behaving like a decent human being might do the trick:

- The guy who created the design owns it. Possibly he has sold it to somebody.
- If you can find the owner of the copyright, you can ask if he minds you distributing it. If he minds, you had better respect that. He might also be very happy that people are showing an interest and tell you to go ahead.
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Old Jan 30, 2007, 11:10 AM
Visitor from Reality
United States, VA, Arlington
Joined Dec 1996
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Intelectual property doesn't seem to matter a durn to the Chinese...

Or "Uncle Willy" either, to balance the Chinese up with someone from the good ol' US of A

Am sure there's plenty more out there, in every country. Heck, there's been one of my published plans up on several websites and I've never bothered to follow up how closely another of mine relates to a German sourced BARF.

If you put the stuff you have out on a website, you've started something you've lost control of. I'm sure that several lawyers could buy their next Lexus (Lexii ?) from their billable hours if anyone decided to do something about you, but in the end, I suspect that it's mostly down to how you regard your actions.

After all, there are those amongst us who think that performing this sort of action is their perogative and priviledge.

Regards

Dereck
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Old Jan 30, 2007, 12:02 PM
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Virginia Beach, VA
Joined Dec 2005
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I work in this area (16 years this coming May) and can tell you the two major things that get lawyers involved are:

If materials are used by a third party who is making money and not tipping the creator of the materials.

If materials are used by someone and they are either defaming or using it to insult another product.

I always write a nice letter and ask for useage...if it's music...they are usually cool so long as if you turn dime one, you pay the fee...or you get an ASCAP/BMI public exhibition licence.

If it's print...do the same and let them know you will credit them with full information in the piece.

It all comes down to money...if you can show someone that they will in someway directly or indirectly profit by letting you use the materials...they are usually cool.

The real sticklers I have run in to are those people that run that HUGE football league we watch on Sundays (note, I did not use their name...they are FOR REAL)...you so much as post their name on the net and start talking about the 'Big Game' coming up by using its official name, and they start watching....and prosecute just to prove a point.

In closing about the mags you want to post...Go on and contact em...let em know what you want to do. From where I am watching, you are just trying to share some cool stuff...and you are not profiting from it...they should be cool.

You're a good person...your post shows that...and I think you posting the question speaks volumes to the fact that there are 'Good' people everywhere.

--C
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Old Jan 30, 2007, 12:36 PM
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The long and the short of it is that to sue someone for breach, you need a LOT of money. And they had better be worth sueing, or you will lose all the money you spent on the lawyers.


We had to laugh..in Britain some man and wife team renamed their chip shop 'planet hollywood' and a few months later they got a load of lawyers descending on them waving injunctions.

As if it really made any difference.

Well they buckled and I think its now called Planet Hollyhead or something.

They got a load of free publicity tho, cos it made the national news..and of course it cost Planet Hollywood tens of thousands with all the lawyers and legal fees..and made them look stupid and humourless.

Here's is one that went the right way though:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/6289933.stm

A blatant ripoff by Coca Cola, and they coughed up on the nose. Probably their ad agency ripped it off without telling them.

Mind you Joel had to pull his interesting musical number "Thomas the * Engine" off the www.rathergood.com** website last year.


*think about it:
** warning: Adult content in places. But mostly fluffy kittens playing rock guitars. Check out covers of 'gay bar' and 'Northern' and 'MF from hell' under 'other songs'
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Old Jan 31, 2007, 02:12 PM
pd1
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Guys, thanks for all the input.
I'm going to do a little research then hopefully be able to post some of these articles.

I've got the Good brothers article on their winning R/C plane.
Dick Kordas rubber powered plane, it was up for 54 minutes.
And brand new lineup of P-26's, Brewster Buffalos, and the first B-17.

It would be nice to share some of these.
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Old Feb 01, 2007, 08:07 AM
aka: A.Roger Wilfong
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Novi, Michigan, United States
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"The Plan Page" <http://www.theplanpage.com/> has been posting scanned copies of vintage model plans from most of the mags you mention. That site has been up for seven years and I don't remember seeing any of the plans pulled.

I suspect you're ok with the mags listed.

- Roger
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