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Old Feb 02, 2013, 10:17 PM
Registered User
Banff Alberta Canada
Joined Nov 2004
569 Posts
AR Drones and FPV's Being MIsused

All one has to do is go on youtube and check out AR Drone videos and see kids
using these toys to spy and then there are all kinds of other videos out there of other people misusing FPV' s .

Parrot AR Drone looks through windows with a crash.© (2 min 21 sec)


Ar drone spying (9 min 39 sec)


Spying on the kids. (FPV style) (1 min 51 sec)
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Old Feb 02, 2013, 11:34 PM
OSUFPV - KF7VFT
Corvallis, OR
Joined Apr 2010
1,778 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by larry baraniuk View Post
All one has to do is go on youtube and check out AR Drone videos and see kids
using these toys to spy and then there are all kinds of other videos out there of other people misusing FPV' s .
So? People use cars to do bad things too, we don't ban all motorized vehicles
do we? Besides, there are already laws in place in regards to eavesdropping so
there is no need to create new laws when the existing laws are more than
sufficient.

-Blues
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Old Feb 02, 2013, 11:47 PM
BEOWULF
North vancouver, B.C. Canada
Joined Apr 2008
18,831 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by larry baraniuk View Post
I totally disagree.
An FPV involves using real time video to fly it and if you are taking still pictures or images while flying , it is still classified as an FPV.
Take a good look at this FPV forum and there are allot of discussions about camera gimbals and Go Pro cameras and even autopilots.
And take a look at all of the HD videos that are on this forum .
Do me a big fat favor and do your taxonomy policing somewhere else.
This is where capturing video or pictures is aerial photography
And not fpv

Fpv is what you see and hear as you fly

All captured stuff like gopro as example is strictly for aerial photograph

Hopefully you and others can tell the difference and very clear line

I don't care about the actual regulations but understand clearly the definitions

Capturing video is recording it

We do it via fpv but then take captured video
Actual record of flight


As first post in thread says just don't record video and you are ok

It's just same as uav capable fpv planes
If you set up fpv plane to fly with no assistance and use that feature you are not fpv any more

Basically from first post it sounds like they outlaw aerial photography or recording durring flight

Actual fpv seems to be still legal

The definition of capture is of essence
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Last edited by David22; Feb 02, 2013 at 11:55 PM.
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Old Feb 02, 2013, 11:53 PM
Registered User
Oakridge, Oregon
Joined Jul 2004
673 Posts
I wrote an email to Senator Floyd Prozanski this week. Here is what he responded with:

Thanks for your e-mail. SB 71 was introduced as a Senate Judiciary "place holder" bill. It was pre-session filed to get the bill into the process at the beginning of session. I understand the bill was broadly written, but it will be amended to focus on the "bad" conduct of the operator in using drones. I was given a copy of the drafted amendment on Friday and will be talking to the Judiciary staff about some additional changes before the bill is scheduled for hearing. My intent is to address the misuse of drones and to protect individuals' privacy rights.

Once the amendments are completed, I will ask my staff to forward them to you for your comments.

Floyd
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Old Feb 03, 2013, 08:49 AM
Ex AmA mEMBEr
mchldpy's Avatar
United States, CA, San Bernardino
Joined Feb 2010
833 Posts
I don't see the problem

Quote] (from an above link)
(1) “Airspace of Oregon” means the space above the ground that is not part of airspace governed by federal law.
End Quote]


i get the impression from the ongoing "faa over-controlling the rc hobby industry" issue that, the faa has control over the "national airspace", which doesn't have a minimum ceiling defined (it starts at ground level and may extend beyond our atmosphere into space) so, the "oregon airspace" (which is airspace not controlled by the federal law) that you have to operate in to be in violation of the "oregon law" doesn't actually exist. there is no "oregon airspace"

unless i'm missing something,
which won't surprise me
michael clyde
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Old Feb 03, 2013, 09:18 AM
FPV Desert Beta Test Center
Mesa, Arizona
Joined Nov 2006
2,473 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by mchldpy View Post
Quote] (from an above link)
(1) “Airspace of Oregon” means the space above the ground that is not part of airspace governed by federal law.
End Quote]


i get the impression from the ongoing "faa over-controlling the rc hobby industry" issue that, the faa has control over the "national airspace", which doesn't have a minimum ceiling defined (it starts at ground level and may extend beyond our atmosphere into space) so, the "oregon airspace" (which is airspace not controlled by the federal law) that you have to operate in to be in violation of the "oregon law" doesn't actually exist. there is no "oregon airspace"

unless i'm missing something,
which won't surprise me
michael clyde
You didn't miss anything.
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Old Feb 03, 2013, 09:58 AM
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Joined Jan 2011
2,311 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by larry baraniuk View Post
All one has to do is go on youtube and check out AR Drone videos and see kids
using these toys to spy and then there are all kinds of other videos out there of other people misusing FPV' s .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ofzEwdx1P0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0SyahCV7N80

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TDtIC5liHuQ

You can tell those are his kids on the bottom vid

They ignore the flight due to being constantly subjected to them since birth and being propped up n a flight field in a car seat. Ask me how I know
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Old Feb 03, 2013, 10:53 AM
Mmmmmmm!
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Kingdom of Sweden, Dalarna County, Sater
Joined Oct 2011
3,353 Posts
Unfortunately, I know what they're going to do. It seems like people really overestimate the resolution of the video and pictures we take, if you're even 20 meters up you cannot identify anyone in your GoPro clips. I think 99.9% of us are not out to "spy" on people, we fly to get a different perspective on the places we live in and visit.
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Old Feb 03, 2013, 01:19 PM
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Portland, OR
Joined Feb 2007
1,356 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDonski View Post
I wrote an email to Senator Floyd Prozanski this week. Here is what he responded with:

Thanks for your e-mail. SB 71 was introduced as a Senate Judiciary "place holder" bill. It was pre-session filed to get the bill into the process at the beginning of session. I understand the bill was broadly written, but it will be amended to focus on the "bad" conduct of the operator in using drones. I was given a copy of the drafted amendment on Friday and will be talking to the Judiciary staff about some additional changes before the bill is scheduled for hearing. My intent is to address the misuse of drones and to protect individuals' privacy rights.

Once the amendments are completed, I will ask my staff to forward them to you for your comments.

Floyd


Hey TheDonsky,

Just curious as to what you said to him. I am writting to him as well.
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Old Feb 03, 2013, 01:31 PM
Never left one up there yet...
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Canada, BC, Campbell River
Joined Jun 2009
98 Posts
This is a very ill thought out proposal that will die an early death if introduced. Another case of a politician trying to make a name for himself.

As someone has already pointed out, Oregon State has no control over the National Airspace. It belongs to the Federal Government via the FAA. Period. Federal law trumps State law.

Secondly, as someone has already pointed out, there are privacy laws already in place. This bill would be totally redundant.

It's a sad state when nickle-dime politicians sit in their offices wondering what kind of law they can introduce to make a name for themselves. It is not about keeping the public safe, it is about these elected so called officials trying to justify their existance. What easier way to do it than go after a bunch of ordinary people trying to have a little fun. An easy target to say the least. This does not just apply to US politicians. Believe me, we have more than our fair share of them up here in Canada as well.

Go after the real criminals and not make criminals out of ordinary law abiding citizens.

What a screwed up world this is.

MJ
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Old Feb 03, 2013, 02:49 PM
fly by night
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Joined Sep 2011
5,852 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by larry baraniuk View Post
All one has to do is go on youtube and check out AR Drone videos and see kids
using these toys to spy and then there are all kinds of other videos out there of other people misusing FPV' s .
that post does not seem to add anything to the discussion except fear mongering and straw man.

those videos you post are actually 'aerial videography.' David 22 points out that they consist of recorded HD video, flying low with a quad. David is right to point out that not all FPVing is like that, so why imply that it is all like that? I think David himself usually flies at some hundred feet high, and doesn't even carry an HD cam, nor record the link - purely FPV and not aerial videography. Like when I fly fullsize planes, I can see more detail than any FPVer, but it is not an invasion of privacy in the least. Dont throw the baby out with the bathwater.

It is like you are agreeing with the Oregon senators by attempting to prove how widespread the evil use of 'drones' is. Hopefully lawmakers are not stupid enough to see it the way your post implies, and will tighten up the language to apply only to evil close-up spies with quads, or other kinds of paparazzi.
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Old Feb 03, 2013, 03:06 PM
Registered User
Oakridge, Oregon
Joined Jul 2004
673 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by WBFlyer View Post
Hey TheDonsky,

Just curious as to what you said to him. I am writting to him as well.
I wrote to both Senator Floyd and Rep. Hannah. I talked about how long I have been in the hobby. How it was passed on from my grandfather. How I intend to teach my students about the hobby/FPV and this bill seriously limits my abilities as a hobbiest and as a teacher.
I also said that banning everything "drone" including rc flight/fpv is not the answer. The overwhelming majority of FPV pilots fly in safe places and conditions while not putting others in risk or in danger of being spied upon.

I forgot to mention about the great applications of FPV to better our society in my letter:
Search and rescue applications
Assistance with wildland firefighters
Tourism videos
Productive hobby- Keeping some out of trouble
Community of FPV and hobby pilots

I should also included that I could not see someone in detail from 30 feet in the air with my new GoPro 3.

I met Floyd about 3 years ago. I was with my students on a tour of the capital in Salem. He took the time to sit with all of us and have lunch. We all told him about our small town and asked him questions about his views and what he wants to accomplish. He is a good guy and works very hard. He takes time out of his buisy schedule to go the extra mile. He also has come up to Oakridge a couple of times and is willing to meet with people as much as possible. I just feel he doesn't quite understand the full perspective yet regarding this proposal. So the more letters the better to help him understand the negative inpact on us with respect to FPV and LOS flying. We are not criminals and that the experience is life enriching. :^)
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Old Feb 03, 2013, 03:44 PM
Registered User
Joined Nov 2012
45 Posts
Here is an example of the kind of idiocy that will eventually ruin this hobby for the rest of us...

Baby Widow Maker Quad -- FPV In Wrong Hands (5 min 49 sec)


This guy, alishanmao constantly spams legitimate forums in the hope of selling products. In fact, he did not design or make these products, but only hopes to make money as a middleman, buying low and selling high. It is obvious that the "young lovers" he is spying on are consenting props in his staged video.

Alishanmao will do anything to make money, including jeopardizing the rights of all recreational RC flyers to have fun while not spying on people. My point is that for every person who just wants to make beautiful videos of landscapes and wildlife, there will be someone who wants to fly over their neighbor's hot tub.

This guy may have no interest in invading anyone's privacy for his own thrills, but the sad truth is that he will make money from people who are.
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Old Feb 03, 2013, 04:40 PM
DJO
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United States, CT, Stafford
Joined Oct 2011
3,615 Posts
Oh man this isn't good, the whole "FPV revolution" is ending for people in Oregon - I hope it doesn't start spreading throughout the country! I feel really bad for those FPVers in Oregon, that really sucks. Why would they do that??? Man if they actually saw what most of us are using these setups for then they probably would rethink this! I think that drones should maintain legality.... they are harmless to society as of now. In fact, they help people like police, etc., that use them for those kinds of purposes.

None of us here ever meant any harm by flying our "drones"... and I'm sure it's the same for the people in OR, they were just having fun. Heck, driving a car is more dangerous than having a drone in the sky. I wonder what finally made them do this?



Dan
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Old Feb 03, 2013, 06:38 PM
Ex AmA mEMBEr
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United States, CA, San Bernardino
Joined Feb 2010
833 Posts
In retrospect...

Even though (it appears) there is no actual "oregon airspace" where any of this can happen, states used to have the ability to enhance (they could make them stricter but, not less strict) existing federal laws. (i'm "ASS-U-ME-ing" they can still do this) If oregon rewords this proposed bill slightly then they can tighten-up. any aspect of the existing faa regulations or the new ones that are supposed to be here in the near future. If this is the case then it might not matter what the new faa regulations say when they get here if the individual states have the ability to enhance them as they see fit. I don't like that idea one bit. Hopefully somebody reading this dribble that knows if states can enhance laws concerning the national airspace will chime in and set my feeble mind at ease. It may be that the post 9-11/anti-terrorism laws that were put into effect prevent any "enhancing" of national airspace laws. It may not matter what the federal laws say anyway because here in california the state has relaxed the federal statues regarding marijuana use, distribution etc... which is against federal law, california did it anyway. Then some of the cities or counties lightened up on the state or state/federal weed laws and let "medical marijuana" stores open up. Some of them have been raided and shut down by the (i think) "state police" but as of yet i haven't seen any "federal" stormtroopers show up looking for the california politicians who illegally loosened up the federal weed laws, so it may be possible to get away with illegally changing national airspace laws anyway.

I apologize about the length of this dribble,
michael clyde
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