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Old Dec 17, 2010, 11:29 AM
JWs are Shear Fun!
Aerogance's Avatar
USA
Joined Sep 2008
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The end of Boeing?

I was checking out information on the swept wingtips used on the new 787 jet, and came across this:

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/...r_050602g.html

This is very frightening to me to see Boeing offshoring its jet production to China. Not only are there QC and safety concerns, but eventually they will make the whole plane there. This will eliminate thousands of more US jobs, make the planes exceptionally unsafe, and very shorlty we will see a whole crop of "no-name" knockoff planes for sale cheaper than anything Boeing can offer. Boeing will then go out of business, as has happened in most other industries.

But since I live under one of the flight paths to LAX, now I will have fear of wing fairings, rudders and leading edges falling from the sky!
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Old Dec 17, 2010, 11:46 AM
Deniable plausibility
Shedofdread's Avatar
Derbyshire, UK
Joined Aug 2008
2,311 Posts
I'm not going to make any -ve coments re Chinese (or any country's for that matter) products but what I would say is a little protectionist policy is good for the citizens of the country in question. I used to believe in an entirely open policy but I'm slowly coming to the opinion that the only parties that benefit from such a policy are the MAJOR shareholders in large publicly quoted companies.

Now, to bring it relevant to model flight, wherever possible (and I know this won't be easy) we should support suppliers and even better manufacturers in our own respective countries.
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Old Dec 17, 2010, 01:00 PM
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St. Louis, MO
Joined Oct 2002
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QC would be handled by Boeing engineers and if they do their job right I doubt you will see a lack of quality. I see no reason to assume that just because things are made in China that they will be of poor quality.

American car companies have been making crap for 40 years but no one really cares. Folks say buy American regardless of how poor the car is. Keep workers in work. Put more lipstick on the pig and call it a new and improved pig. We the tax payers helped GM and Chrysler come back from the brink. I just hope they have seen the light and will make cars the WORLD wants. Why are there so many imported cars here? Because they make good stuff that the public wants. American car companies could care less about the rest of the world.

Being a kit manufactirer I try and make some quality kits. I appreciate the sentimant of buy from home. I try hard not to emulate the car companies. Heck I have a kit with a set of laser parts that cost the same as a Great Planes Vista ARF. Hard to compete on price.
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Old Dec 17, 2010, 01:38 PM
Aloft Hobbies
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United States, CA, Novato
Joined Sep 2003
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Probably not the right place for this conversation, but I read this article the other day (see link below), I think you might enjoy it. It is a story about Gamesa's wing turbine business in China. This is China's new method of pushing into higher and higher tech industries. This includes electronics, automobiles, aircraft, etc.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/15/bu...chinawind.html

We could also look into how they are now exploiting the rare earth materials to also expand high tech manufacturing via unfair trade practices.

-Wayne
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Old Dec 17, 2010, 03:01 PM
Biting ankles since '53
No Pants Island
Joined Feb 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rotozuk View Post
Probably not the right place for this conversation, but I read this article the other day (see link below), I think you might enjoy it. It is a story about Gamesa's wing turbine business in China. This is China's new method of pushing into higher and higher tech industries. This includes electronics, automobiles, aircraft, etc.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/12/15/bu...chinawind.html

We could also look into how they are now exploiting the rare earth materials to also expand high tech manufacturing via unfair trade practices.

-Wayne
Do you really think that if the US had the bulk of rare earth materials that you would be giving them to a business competitor?
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Old Dec 17, 2010, 03:33 PM
Red Merle ALES
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United States, Mt, Helena
Joined Apr 2002
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the book "Airframe" by Michael Chrichton is a good read.
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Old Dec 17, 2010, 03:44 PM
Aloft Hobbies
Rotozuk's Avatar
United States, CA, Novato
Joined Sep 2003
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mr_editor View Post
Do you really think that if the US had the bulk of rare earth materials that you would be giving them to a business competitor?
Actually the US used to do a good business in rare earths as well as other countries.. Wanna guess what happened to that market? Go on, give it a try..


I'll give you a second more..



Yep, China under priced and dumped on the global market to take control of this market place. Sound familiar? Once the competition was crushed they started playing games with the supplies. Raising prices and severely limiting exports of raw material. But, if say GE decided to build a nice high tech plant in China, then they can access the rare earths for those nice low prices. What does China gain? A new industry taking advantage of the refined rare earths and their high tech manufacturing of said products.

How is the world reacting? Well some countries are now looking at reviving their rare earth mining to avoid the embarrassment of having their pants pulled down to their ankles. How will China react to this competition?? Hmm, wanna guess? Have we all been paying attention?
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Old Dec 17, 2010, 04:40 PM
the occasional flyer
rothlisburger's Avatar
Rexburg, ID
Joined Jul 2008
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerogance View Post
I was checking out information on the swept wingtips used on the new 787 jet, and came across this:

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/...r_050602g.html

This is very frightening to me to see Boeing offshoring its jet production to China. ...
Boeing has been working with companies in Italy, Japan, Germany, and others for the '87 since its inception. Don't see why China shouldn't be in the group. They are getting to big boys and girls now.

-David
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Old Dec 18, 2010, 05:16 AM
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Hot Air's Avatar
United Arab Emirates, Dubai
Joined Sep 2009
120 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerogance View Post

But since I live under one of the flight paths to LAX, now I will have fear of wing fairings, rudders and leading edges falling from the sky!
Don't worry Aerogance, no western pilot would fly such a plane and the FAA and other equivalent ICAO CAA's wouldn't certify them to fly over their territories, so even if their components were made in China, they would have to satisfy the discerning aviation community, who are even more fussy than D80 owners.

On the subject of fakes, this is what you need to be concerned about:

(Lucky Airlines Palm Beach)
Lucky Airlines Palm Beach (0 min 25 sec)


Merry Christmas!
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Old Dec 18, 2010, 05:22 AM
pushing the envelope
rcgroupie's Avatar
USA, CA, Los Angeles
Joined Jun 2005
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Quote:
QC would be handled by Boeing engineers and if they do their job right I doubt you will see a lack of quality. I see no reason to assume that just because things are made in China that they will be of poor quality.
Unfortunately with composite structures in particular it is very difficult if not impossible to verify the quality 'after the fact'.
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Old Dec 18, 2010, 09:53 AM
I DS slower than I build!
Cory's Avatar
Idaho Falls
Joined Jul 2006
2,343 Posts
China does make a lot of junk, but they are also capable of making top quality products when they want to. For example, the NORINCO model 1911 .45 ACP pistol is built better than some of the American versions of the gun. The custom gun shops love to use them to make high end conversions because of the quality of the starting product.

There is no reason China couldn't also make top quality airplane parts.
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Old Dec 18, 2010, 04:57 PM
sewing machine thumb
United States, CA, Palo Alto
Joined Jul 2001
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aerogance View Post
But since I live under one of the flight paths to LAX, now I will have fear of wing fairings, rudders and leading edges falling from the sky!
By this reasoning, should we all run for cover when someone winds up a Dynamic at Weldon? They are made in China. I'm kinda happy with mine ...
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Old Dec 18, 2010, 07:07 PM
Just fly it!
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Cody, WY
Joined Nov 2007
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rcgroupie View Post
Unfortunately with composite structures in particular it is very difficult if not impossible to verify the quality 'after the fact'.
I watched a company test the quality of a super thick carbon laminate using a gizmo that looked like a soil compaction tester. They called it an Ultrasonic C-scan. They would scan every inch of the laminate for voids. The laminate was around 5/8" thick. They could never get the laminate devoid of voids (using prepreg and a high pressure autoclave). The had to abandon the project and a very expensive tool.

Boeing was also working a government jet fighter project that was going to be comprised of a carbon outer skin. I watched a video of them testing the quality of the laminate in a similar way. Boeing had to abandon the full carbon skin concept because they were unable to create a voidless jet fighter sized single laminate. They were able to determine the quality of the laminate before it was even removed from the tool. I assume they do this process with all their composite components.

Anyway, Boeing does have the ability to verify the quality of a laminate using ultrasonic scanning. Apparently they can find voids, delamination, determine the condition of the resin cure, resin content, and fiber orientation with the scan.

Do a google search for Ultrasonic Scanning Composites and you will get a host of info on the process. You can even find some videos on Youtube
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Old Dec 19, 2010, 05:40 PM
pushing the envelope
rcgroupie's Avatar
USA, CA, Los Angeles
Joined Jun 2005
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Fibers encapsulated by resin and fibers bonded to resin look identical to ultrasound. Also, jets use skins that are laminates with honeycomb. You can't see thru the panel except where the core and skin touch.
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Old Dec 19, 2010, 06:29 PM
Crikey never leave beer behind
steve wenban's Avatar
Mt Annan Sydney Australia
Joined Dec 2003
23,057 Posts
C scan is only 1 of several methods Of NDT of Composite material water jet scan is highly utilized in the detection on voids and de-lamination as well as contamination of solid laminate as well as lay ups including nomex core. So detection of non conforming product is very well catered for in the the aerospace industry.
PS is there are 2 cures in the auto clave High pressure for laminate low pressure for Cored layups.All B777 elevator and rudder Skins are water jet inspected FWIW
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