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Old Apr 16, 2014, 07:32 PM
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Radical RC Dave - Crowd Sourced Auto Gyro Mentoring - 10mm Madness

I know, the title is over the top. ;-)

OK - Here is the deal. I'm a very experienced modeler and designer but a very green auto gyro enthusiast. I've been trying to learn Auto-Gyros to expand my modeling horizons. I've always been fascinated with them. In fact, if you dig, you'll find a video I made a number of years ago of a very cool model. This was the first time my interest was kindled. The fire went out until recently. It's now a full on blaze! I feel I'm making every possible mistake, some of them several times. I have no local mentor to look at my stuff and straighten out all my rookie errors.

So, I'm going to have a little fun and, learn in a bare naked fashion.

As many of you may know, I design model airplanes, tools, totes and other things made by laser. I really enjoy doing this. Most of the things I make are really my own scratch built projects. I just do the making on a laser so when I've perfected the project, I can share it with others as a new product.

I want to have a large impact on the Auto-Gyro world like we have in the Slow Stick world.

I've been designing parts all based around the 10mm square boom. There are many options here for the boom material. Wood, Carbon, Glass and aluminum.

So far I've designed a head, blade tangs, fully articulated gimbal and fuse crutch. My head should bolt right in place of the fragile Dura Fly head. I'd like at least one person to try that out. Are my parts correct? Too soft or too stiff? etc....

In my series of mistakes, I've put these parts into the ground over 50mph several times and have yet to break any of them. I'm almost ready to call them indestructible. However, I may prove myself wrong soon if I don't get a handle on the setup. ;-) We've had a number of very promising successful flights also.

What I want to do is supply all my parts (for free) to 3 RC Groups pilots who are active and auto gyro enthusiasts. With the idea being that you'd have the electronics you need (power system, servos etc..) to build a machine based on my parts. I'll learn so much watching you do it. I'll post photos of my attempts and what I'm looking for is constructive criticism that will allow me to perfect the things I'm making and my own machines. I want to become solid enough that I could help another person setup a machine and be successful. You'll need to be able to configure a gyro without instructions, I'm not qualified to give any at this time.

I'm happy to make new parts. Right now I only have a 3 blade head. I plan to cut 2 blade heads soon. Anything you want me to make that seems it would add to the theme I will try to design and make. I expect to be active in this thread for 6 months to a year. Maybe I'm overestimating my ability to learn?

Anyway, I'd really enjoy it if the participants can make some of their posts living ones. A posted YouTube video linked in this thread here and there would be very cool. Maybe we can re-invent RC Groups as we go along revolutionizing (OK I'm going over the top again) the auto gyro world?

If this sounds interesting to you and you have the time and electronics to participate, please post your thoughts and tell me something about your machines. You don't need to be the most skilled person in the world. Just skilled enough to diagnose problems, make sensible recommendations and make all the configuration decisions for your new auto gyro.

Happy Flying!
Dave
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Old Apr 17, 2014, 12:59 AM
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Old Apr 17, 2014, 02:15 AM
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Sounds cool Dave,

As you will already know following this thread the HK head is being used by many (including myself) with great success. I did a Sketch Up drawing of it for Steve a few weeks back as a little project (it was more about learning Sketch Up than the head it self), I can Mail you a copy if you want (I hope that I am not infringing on any copyright). I believe (as a Noob who is just getting into these things) that the G10 (Fiberglas) head plate is the way ahead (pun intended), many people using/ adapting them with great success, seems to provide just the right amount of flapping/ damping/ rigidity for our blades and there relatively high Reynolds numbers.

My pet moan is that I PERSONALLY think that ALL AGs should have a thrust bearing fitted to the top of the Rotor head!!!! However, I think that I am the only person in the world who is following this line

I have modded all 4 of my current machines to incorporate a thrust bearing and I have posted details on a couple of threads. To my mind a thrust bearing is crucial but the funny thing is, no-one else does it and their models all fly fine (probably better than mine) so maybe it is just my opinion/ approach/ white elephant!!

So, when will we see a fully aerobatic twin motor, 3 rotor, 2 bladed fully scale model that can be built from the contents of the waste paper bin????????



Obviously I am interested in anything new but being over here in Germany and with my limited experience I am probably not the Man to ‘test’ your stuff. Read the Crane Fly thread (great model by the way), I even managed to build the blades backwards and have the only Clockwise rotating Crane in the world, if I can’t even get that right…..
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Old Apr 17, 2014, 07:45 AM
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Sounds cool Dave,

As you will already know following this thread the HK head is being used by many (including myself) with great success. I did a Sketch Up drawing of it for Steve a few weeks back as a little project (it was more about learning Sketch Up than the head it self), I can Mail you a copy if you want (I hope that I am not infringing on any copyright). I believe (as a Noob who is just getting into these things) that the G10 (Fiberglas) head plate is the way ahead (pun intended), many people using/ adapting them with great success, seems to provide just the right amount of flapping/ damping/ rigidity for our blades and there relatively high Reynolds numbers.
Thank you for your reply. Actually what got me started is FoamAndTape works in the shop part time. He brought in a nice scratch built machine utilizing the Dura-Fly Head (not gimbal) and blades. That setup was very fragile. We went through his head pieces and blades in a very short number of attempts. I measured up the bolt pattern and created my own head to replace his so we could go on trying to get his machine to fly without running out of parts. He's still flying the original many crashes later and we've never broken it.

A little secret. My head has adjustable pitch. I don't often make things unless I feel I can offer some cool new gizmo factor. That turns me on.

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My pet moan is that I PERSONALLY think that ALL AGs should have a thrust bearing fitted to the top of the Rotor head!!!! However, I think that I am the only person in the world who is following this line
I'll look this up, feel free to stick links in. My setup uses 3mm shaft and common bearings from GWS gearbox's. It might be possible to use tapered bearings on both top and bottom. You've given me something to look into.

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I have modded all 4 of my current machines to incorporate a thrust bearing and I have posted details on a couple of threads. To my mind a thrust bearing is crucial but the funny thing is, no-one else does it and their models all fly fine (probably better than mine) so maybe it is just my opinion/ approach/ white elephant!!

So, when will we see a fully aerobatic twin motor, 3 rotor, 2 bladed fully scale model that can be built from the contents of the waste paper bin????????
One of my 50 mph crashes was a head ejection from 70 feet or so. I climbed out with too much power and powered it right over the top of a figure 9 loop. Just as I was getting control (and Peter was yelling "less power!!!") the head came off an my ambitions shot to the ground with a predictable thud. At the time we were using an old dead motor as the bearing assembly and it came out of it's set screw mount.

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Obviously I am interested in anything new but being over here in Germany and with my limited experience I am probably not the Man to ‘test’ your stuff. Read the Crane Fly thread (great model by the way), I even managed to build the blades backwards and have the only Clockwise rotating Crane in the world, if I can’t even get that right…..
I'll take some time tonight to track down some of the things you mentioned. Thanks for the input. I've no where to go but up.

I'll stick in a photo tonight of what I'm trying to fly. I've had a couple of good flights but keep changing the configuration. Trying to in effect make a trainer that is also a pusher. I'm starting to think those two things may not go together. The reason for the trainer is, that is what I need until I get some gyro experience under my belt.

Dave
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Old Apr 17, 2014, 08:13 AM
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PM me your address. I really like your Minimum machine. I notice you're using quite a bit of horizontal stabilizer area. I've reduced that on mine quite a bit. I had a few crashes where I could not recover from a dive. I have surmised I had too much horizontal and was therefore too stable. Once in the dive, unable to produce enough up pitch command in the rotor to recover. Can you give me your thoughts on that issue? I'm convinced I could be completely in error.

Really like your video's. For the purposes of this thread, I'd love to see some where you are talking to us, giving us your thoughts and musings as you go along. Love the hanging thrust line test.

I'd also like to know your thoughts on another question. I've been considering moving the rotor center off center to the left since we have more lift on the right than the left always. Another question. I've been considering change over to pusher (as opposed to flipped tractor) props so I can get the motors torque opposing and not adding to the off center lift. Your thoughts?

I'm already learning things. It's going to be an exciting summer!

Dave
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Old Apr 17, 2014, 10:04 AM
edi
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I have flown my Merry Miller two times now. While I am a pretty experienced builder and pilot, I have so far built and flown five autogyros (one of them I have only crashed twice). I mention the Merry Miller because it is a nice autogyro to try things out. Living in Germany, I might not be the ideal tester either, but perhaps I could gang up with PaulB so youŽd only be sending parts to one person abroad.

Let me know whether you are interested.
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Old Apr 17, 2014, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by radicalrc View Post
PM me your address. I really like your Minimum machine. I notice you're using quite a bit of horizontal stabilizer area. I've reduced that on mine quite a bit. I had a few crashes where I could not recover from a dive. I have surmised I had too much horizontal and was therefore too stable. Once in the dive, unable to produce enough up pitch command in the rotor to recover. Can you give me your thoughts on that issue? I'm convinced I could be completely in error.


Dave
Dave, what servos are you using for head control? My first thought was maybe not enuf servo torque to pitch the rotor. I am a relative novice to autogyros, with only a couple dual rotors, a g3po, and a pt profie to my name, but I DO have experience with your slow stick upgrades
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Old Apr 17, 2014, 03:59 PM
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Dave,
Count me in! I am more than happy to build and experiment for you, it would make a change for me. If not, there are plenty of experienced Gyronuts who are sure to offer their services, a good bunch from all over on here.

This is about a 1/3rd of my autogyro collection, you can never have to many autogyros!


Good luck!


Rich
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Old Apr 17, 2014, 09:06 PM
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Dave
Firstly I must advise you that the "Minimum" was designed by Jocken K ...a great modeller that is no longer with us. The hang test video on my blog is one that Jocken made several years ago. I just put it there so others could see the way it works.
re the stab....I don't think that I have ever been in a position to have had the problem you mention... but I notice that Rich has reduced the area of the stab on his models and removed it all together on some models...so I am sure he can help you there , and I can not see the need to move the rotor off centre . If you require to PM any one ..just click on there user name ..and go from there.
I am sure that Rich is just about the best advisor that you could hope to get for any autogyro project.
Chris..
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Old Apr 18, 2014, 06:28 AM
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Dave
Firstly I must advise you that the "Minimum" was designed by Jocken K ...a great modeller that is no longer with us. The hang test video on my blog is one that Jocken made several years ago. I just put it there so others could see the way it works.
re the stab....I don't think that I have ever been in a position to have had the problem you mention... but I notice that Rich has reduced the area of the stab on his models and removed it all together on some models...so I am sure he can help you there , and I can not see the need to move the rotor off centre . If you require to PM any one ..just click on there user name ..and go from there.
I am sure that Rich is just about the best advisor that you could hope to get for any autogyro project.
Chris..
On the subject of horizontal stabs......

Mickey and Tom got into a discussion which ended with Tom chopping the Elev. off of one of his models and he did find an improvement, or at very least proved that it was unnecessary.
Rich mentioned to me at one point that he did not think that a Stab was need on his Spyro, so, never one to ignore the words of a Master I built a new tail boom without Stab. I do think that it is a bit more stable, especially in a blustery wind and the nose is now staying up better in turns, HOWEVER, I have altered the Hang Angle as well which alters the trim and so I cannot draw this a s a conclusion.
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Old Apr 18, 2014, 06:35 AM
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Dave's Autogyro

Dave,
I will come to you booth at Joe Nall and see what you are working on.
I will be across from you at Vel-Tye.

Jim
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Old Apr 18, 2014, 08:25 AM
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I'd also like to know your thoughts on another question. I've been considering moving the rotor center off center to the left since we have more lift on the right than the left always.
I strongly suggest you read Micky's excellent "Gyrocopter Aerodynamics" thread before you proceed much further because it sounds like you've got some typical misunderstandings to sort out....
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Old Apr 18, 2014, 08:54 AM
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I will test for you.
--mickey
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Old Apr 18, 2014, 04:44 PM
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I strongly suggest you read Micky's excellent "Gyrocopter Aerodynamics" thread before you proceed much further because it sounds like you've got some typical misunderstandings to sort out....
PeterO
Uhhhh yes, that would be the whole point of this thread. Thank you. I'll look that up.

Dave
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Old Apr 18, 2014, 04:54 PM
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I will test for you.
--mickey
Are you the guy that wrote the Gyrocopter Aerodynamics PeterO is recommending?

Dave
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