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Old Mar 16, 2013, 08:01 PM
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Muncie, IN
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Originally Posted by coriolan View Post
krafty

Your effort in posting here isn't wasted believe me.
My sentiments exactly. Please keep it up! I can use the education.

Geoff the silent bottom feeder with only one vintage diesel
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Old Mar 16, 2013, 08:09 PM
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Originally Posted by GeoffinIN View Post
My sentiments exactly. Please keep it up! I can use the education.

Geoff the silent bottom feeder with only one vintage diesel
Geoff, what is that one engine you've got ?
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Old Mar 17, 2013, 06:18 AM
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France, Aquitaine, Duras
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The Russian Mk17 diesel like you've never seen it.

May be this is off-topic but I will give it a go.
Most enthusiasts will know of the little twin ball race rear induction Russian Mk17 diesel of 1.5cc, though whether it fits this vintage forum is any one’s guess. The engine was made in vast numbers and it was adopted in Russia as the basis for junior model training. The tether-car organization in Russia adopted it as the engine for beginners to power their first airscrew-driven tether cars, and its loss created some problems when production ceased. [The Russians are at the very top of the tether-car hobby.]
But this post is about a particular Mk 17 the like of which you may never have seen. A one-time engine builder acquaintance of mine called Peter decided he would play with a Mk 17, and he turned it into a fully workable and I think quite elegant 4–cycle glow engine. [Hence my doubt about where this should be posted].
The work required a gear box / cam box to be built and of course a totally new top end of the cylinder with valves and rockers was needed. Gears were required because the cam shaft has to run at half crankshaft speed. Luckily being a rear induction engine the crankpin extension used in the stock diesel to drive the rear disk, could be used to drive the new cam assembly at the rear of the engine. The existing cylinder with all its ports was retained. After all, why not, though I have my suspicions that induction and compression of the fresh charge may be effected, and a plain un-ported cylinder would have been better. But he had enough parts to make, so why do unnecessary work. The new aluminum cylinder head has pressed-in inserts which combine the function of valve guide and valve seat. The valves themselves are stainless steel, which is not easy to work with since it readily work-hardens during the machining process making life very difficult for the machinist. Bear in mind that these valves have a head diameter of only 5.5mm and a shank diameter of 1.86mm.

The whole reconstruction was prettied-up by anodizing a nice bright colour, this being achieved as far as I recall, by using computer printer ink after the anodizing has been done. [Is my memory failing yet again? No printer I have owned ever had red ink!] So see some pictures of the engine and its parts..
I have seen the engine run, and it was delightful. His conversion received a lot of publicity in the closed circles of the engine builders, and one enterprising chap with a Germanic sounding name actually produced a batch of copies of the engine which he offered for sale. I have no idea if Peter was involved in any way with these engines.
So an apology if this is in the wrong forum, and also to those who are not as interested in aspects of engines with the same enthusiasm as me.
I have posted pictures of Peter’s engine and its parts, a picture of the batch of engines made by the German copyist, and finally a shot or two of the sketches Peter made from which he built his engine just so you can have some idea how some of us work! If anyone is sufficiently interested I have a complete set of Peter’s sketches. For Peter’s privacy I have not given his name since I have lost contact with him and this post has been made without seeking his approval.
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Old Mar 17, 2013, 06:46 AM
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Belgium
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Originally Posted by krafty View Post
May be this is off-topic but I will give it a go.
Most enthusiasts will know of the little twin ball race rear induction Russian Mk17 diesel of 1.5cc, though whether it fits this vintage forum is any one’s guess. The engine was made in vast numbers and it was adopted in Russia as the basis for junior model training. The tether-car organization in Russia adopted it as the engine for beginners to power their first airscrew-driven tether cars, and its loss created some problems when production ceased. [The Russians are at the very top of the tether-car hobby.]
But this post is about a particular Mk 17 the like of which you may never have seen. A one-time engine builder acquaintance of mine called Peter decided he would play with a Mk 17, and he turned it into a fully workable and I think quite elegant 4–cycle glow engine. [Hence my doubt about where this should be posted].
The work required a gear box / cam box to be built and of course a totally new top end of the cylinder with valves and rockers was needed. Gears were required because the cam shaft has to run at half crankshaft speed. Luckily being a rear induction engine the crankpin extension used in the stock diesel to drive the rear disk, could be used to drive the new cam assembly at the rear of the engine. The existing cylinder with all its ports was retained. After all, why not, though I have my suspicions that induction and compression of the fresh charge may be effected, and a plain un-ported cylinder would have been better. But he had enough parts to make, so why do unnecessary work. The new aluminum cylinder head has pressed-in inserts which combine the function of valve guide and valve seat. The valves themselves are stainless steel, which is not easy to work with since it readily work-hardens during the machining process making life very difficult for the machinist. Bear in mind that these valves have a head diameter of only 5.5mm and a shank diameter of 1.86mm.

The whole reconstruction was prettied-up by anodizing a nice bright colour, this being achieved as far as I recall, by using computer printer ink after the anodizing has been done. [Is my memory failing yet again? No printer I have owned ever had red ink!] So see some pictures of the engine and its parts..
I have seen the engine run, and it was delightful. His conversion received a lot of publicity in the closed circles of the engine builders, and one enterprising chap with a Germanic sounding name actually produced a batch of copies of the engine which he offered for sale. I have no idea if Peter was involved in any way with these engines.
So an apology if this is in the wrong forum, and also to those who are not as interested in aspects of engines with the same enthusiasm as me.
I have posted pictures of Peter’s engine and its parts, a picture of the batch of engines made by the German copyist, and finally a shot or two of the sketches Peter made from which he built his engine just so you can have some idea how some of us work! If anyone is sufficiently interested I have a complete set of Peter’s sketches. For Peter’s privacy I have not given his name since I have lost contact with him and this post has been made without seeking his approval.
With the feeling of showing-off again... but not one to keep on grunging for long, here is the engine alongside the original Mk-17. It is very well made and running very well too, forgot the prop size I used. Style is a bit like the the Merco/Stebro conversion. I would have too look up in my files where it came from. Could be Germany, not sure. The mention of printer dye is of interest since I have used Dylon colour myself in the past when giving anodising a try, following the method of N.Rat in of the the old Model Engine Word magazine articles.
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Old Mar 17, 2013, 08:16 AM
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France, Aquitaine, Duras
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Originally Posted by Reginald View Post
The mention of printer dye is of interest since I have used Dylon colour myself in the past when giving anodising a try, following the method of N.Rat in of the the old Model Engine Word magazine articles.
N.Rat is the eBay user name of my pal Peter who built the first of these engines. N Rat is an anagram of his actual name which is Peter Tarn.
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Old Mar 17, 2013, 11:35 AM
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Canada, ON, Hamilton
Joined Oct 2005
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Gentlemen, these are all interesting comments/observations.
What can I say?
Not much, maybe nothing?
Each comment (copied down below) does ring a truth.
You are all a really great bunch of modelers, and that is what it is all about.

Krafty, I’m sorry you did not get the expected response to your postings.
I did enjoy seeing your engine pictures. I would love to have the knowledge of “machining” so that I could talk the “lingo”, but unfortunately I have a hard enough time with just one language.

Maybe I didn’t (as perhaps others) give you a technical question or response because I lacked the knowledge.

However, please note, that I do envy your talents. People that can create and machine parts are very talented. Personally, I put them on the same pedestal as, say, a famous artist or musician or composer. I like to look/watch and listen , but I can’t really contribute!

So, you might ask, why am I interested in model engines? Good question?
As a kid (1946) I learned on my own, no mentor. I dreamed of having my models fly.
And, as a kid, I was very limited with funds, so a model engine was very expensive.
Just looking at model engine pictures made the dreams seem so much more real.
And that’s why I only collect “newer” , or my era of model engines.
Then, I thought, if I had “one of those” my model would fly.
And fly they did, often into many mishaps.
The few that actually flew, often did so on the first flight with a full tank of fuel!
But I did struggle on, and here I am now.
Not having the technical “lingo” I can only offer up pictures, like a little kid, see what I got!



Twin Stack, [good points here...]
“we have some extremely talented people who frequent this forum, but are still a little reluctant
to share their vast knowledge. Your own comment "At my age I sometimes forget what I did
yesterday" merely helps to highlight my point that none of us are getting any younger, and when
we go, we take our learning with us. For those people who haven't as yet Googled Ken, he is
highly skilled (World Class in fact) in the art of making model engines, and we would all love to
hear (and see) more of your work and opinions ! BOB”


Reginald, [we all do the best we can with what we have......]
“Did you really expect that all participants here do own a lathe or mill, let alone the knowledge to
use them ?
That are nitpicking on everything, the right nomenclature, correcting every written word, arguing
endlessly, until everyone has forgotten what it was all about in the first place, often a simple
question about whatever by someone whom just wanted a simple reply to his problem.”

Krafty, [many of us are just in the audience...]
“So yes, the odd request has been made to see more engines or give more details, but with the
very poor responses to the engines that I have shown, I am not encouraged to spend any more
time here. There is a lot of effort required to put together details of the design quirks of a
particular engine, or the techniques required to produce it, and frankly for just 2 or 3 people to
actively show an interest, it is just not worth it. In fact 2 or 3 people showing interest is a pretty
clear demonstration that there really is no interest at all. ”

.....and...just my two cents worth.
John
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Old Mar 17, 2013, 02:18 PM
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France, Aquitaine, Duras
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Dear Mr Aviator and others in the diesel thread.

I thank you for your observations and I thank others who have commented on my little outburst in the diesel thread. It is sadly a fact that I am given to being more grumpy than a grown person of the male persuasion should be, and that I do not suffer fools gladly, if at all. But none of that is an excuse for spitting out my dummy in a disagreeable manner. Maybe I expect too much. Maybe my glass of Pétrus '45 was not as good as it should have been, who knows. Whatever the case, I have been cheered by just a few comments from those who have an addiction to this forum, yet who persue their interest normally without an utterance.

Since my little spat I have made two new posts, one in the Ignition thread and one in the diesel thread. Not only am I grumpy, I am given to being long winded, and although I hope my posts are of interest, they are a bit more than the one-liners that we sometimes see here. If they are too verbose, I hope someone will make me aware.
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Old Mar 17, 2013, 02:45 PM
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Joined Dec 2008
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krafty, I remember seeing those four stroke conversions somewhere before, maybe Reginald showed his pics way back in this thread or the other thread previously. I thought they were really neat myself too. Since that one fellow made a number of copies of it, maybe I'll wind up getting one one of these days. Thanks for sharing.
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Old Mar 17, 2013, 05:24 PM
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Re. the Mk. 17 4-strokes, was there any particular reason why that engine was chosen ?
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Old Mar 17, 2013, 05:36 PM
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France, Aquitaine, Duras
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Twin Stack View Post
Re. the Mk. 17 4-strokes, was there any particular reason why that engine was chosen ?
I have no idea why Peter chose the Mk17 to play with, but they were at the time very cheap and readily available. Also having a rear disk induction it had an extended crankpin to drive any new bits at the back, avoiding the need to make a new shaft. So in answer to your question, I don't know, but it was a good choice.
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Old Mar 17, 2013, 06:24 PM
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Definitely one for the ED collectors -

"E.D. HAWK 1.5cc DIESEL MODEL AERO ENGINE
I BELIEVE THESE WERE MADE UNDER LICENCE BY WEBRA IN GERMANY AROUND 1962. NO SERIAL NUMBER . CRANKCASE MARKED "MADE IN GERMANY" ORIGINAL E.D. BOX MARKED "HAWK"

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/E-D-HAWK-1...item4171a806d2
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Old Mar 17, 2013, 06:32 PM
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0.75 cc Hunt

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Rare-Hunt-...item2ec702d304
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Old Mar 17, 2013, 06:39 PM
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The windy west coast of Sweden
Joined Sep 2008
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Quote:
"E.D. HAWK 1.5cc DIESEL MODEL AERO ENGINE


The resemblance to the contemporary Webra Record is clearly seen.

Webra's "new" crankcase of 1959 (which remained to the end) has clearly been a model for the "Hawk" design...
Also, compare the Hawk's propdriver to the later Webra....maybe even the cranskshafts were identical...?

.
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Old Mar 17, 2013, 07:02 PM
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QLD, Australia
Joined Sep 2003
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Krafty,
I first saw the mk17 4st on Rons model engine site :- http://modelenginenews.org/ed.2004.05.html#t1 , lovely conversion.And a later followup on the limited production run here ;:- http://modelenginenews.org/ed.2005.04.html#t8
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Old Mar 17, 2013, 10:55 PM
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Belgium
Joined Aug 2004
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krafty View Post
I thank you for your observations and I thank others who have commented on my little outburst in the diesel thread. It is sadly a fact that I am given to being more grumpy than a grown person of the male persuasion should be, and that I do not suffer fools gladly, if at all. But none of that is an excuse for spitting out my dummy in a disagreeable manner. Maybe I expect too much. Maybe my glass of Pétrus '45 was not as good as it should have been, who knows. Whatever the case, I have been cheered by just a few comments from those who have an addiction to this forum, yet who persue their interest normally without an utterance.

Since my little spat I have made two new posts, one in the Ignition thread and one in the diesel thread. Not only am I grumpy, I am given to being long winded, and although I hope my posts are of interest, they are a bit more than the one-liners that we sometimes see here. If they are too verbose, I hope someone will make me aware.
Maeby that Petrus is just a tad of a little too old, my last 3 own bottles are dating 1962, maeby I might swap one for an engine in future, who knows...lol
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