Thanks Wilfor. PM sent his way.

Originally Posted by RCvertt

Thanks Wilfor. PM sent his way.

Hi Aaron...

You found me and you certainly have my permission to use the KF airfoil concept for your project.

Floyd Fogleman died in 2003, so I'm left standing alone on two artificial knees. Just had the second one done. Getting old is really a blast. But, the surgery has gone very well.

Good luck on your new adventure.

~ Dick Kline

Originally Posted by Dickeroo

Hi Aaron...

You found me and you certainly have my permission to use the KF airfoil concept for your project.

Floyd Fogleman died in 2003, so I'm left standing alone on two artificial knees. Just had the second one done. Getting old is really a blast. But, the surgery has gone very well.

Good luck on your new adventure.

~ Dick Kline

Great thank you so much. Needless to say these birds will just be two more in a long list of planes that your design has helped contribute to. Glad to hear that your surgery went well. Luckily we can fly these things while sitting in a lawn chair with TX in one hand and a martini in the other. Didn't know about Fogleman. Hopefully these birds will be worthy of the work both of you have done with your wing design.

Originally Posted by RCvertt

As for unfounded rumors that these aircraft resemble an Osprey or Harrier I suppose I should give Bell Boeing and McDonnell Douglas a call about licensing before they sue me. Would I still owe them if I call it an Osprino and JumpRadJet?

You could always choose a generic name, like "Hawk" or "Hawker"?

Hawk may work. Not sure about Hawker. Don't want Hawker Siddeley after me.

So will the tide be turning in the poll or do people just like the color pink to much? Time will tell.

Originally Posted by RCvertt

...Most of the VTOL Harrier builds I have seen haven't been electric and are simply too scale. Scale proportions won't work.

Sorry about the relentless negative harping. Think of me as a well-meaning Devil's Advocate.

I've been thinking about your comment, above, and I have to ask: Shouldn't the Holy-Grailish pursuit of a model AV-8B that really does what the big ones do be one of making a true scale model of the aircraft?

If it isn't a scale model Harrier, isn't the whole point of the effort defeated? Isn't it just a glorified quadcopter of some sort? Seems like it's either a scale AV-8B, or it doesn't count.

Am I being unreasonable?

No worries. Your questions and concerns need to be answered before attempting such a build. I have already asked myself many of these questions.

A true scale model of the aircraft would be nice but it's just not possible with the technology we currently have. Basically EDF units just don't offer the flight time we need if the model is true scale. True scale gets too heavy too fast. We don't even know if not being scale will give us the 3-4 minute flight time we are looking for from this build. That is what this build aims to find out.

I don't think the point is defeated if it's not true scale. Having built a functional VTOL model I have a new found respect and understanding of what is actually involved in building and coding and flying a functional VTOL model. Building a functional VTOL model has allowed me to accept compromises in scale looks and function that I might not have other wise. I have also found that it's not necessary to be completely scale in order to have a functional VTOL model. This model won't be a hover only model with a nonfunctional airplane shell thrown on top for looks. The idea is to transition to forward flight just like the real one. Hover will be a small part of the flight envelope, only used for a very quick takeoff and landing.

There are those that won't be happy with anything less than a real Harrier put into a shrinking machine. All I can do is be honest about the looks and intended function of this aircraft and let everyone else decide on if they think they would have fun building it.

Originally Posted by RCvertt

Hawk may work. Not sure about Hawker. Don't want Hawker Siddeley after me.

I'm guessing you weren't around in the sixties
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawker_Siddeley_Harrier

You might be getting a little too worried about legalities with this one Vertt.

Build it, make it work, see if anyone actually is interested in giving you money for the kit, THEN worry about the legalities of selling the thing. If you never recoup your costs to build the plane then i seriously doubt anyone is going to care.

Even more importantly, think about this. Let's say your wildest expectations happen and you get swamped with orders for these things. How many is that? From experience, i can tell you that 4 or 5 kits a weeks is almost a full time job to get them made, packaged and shipped.

How much money are you going to make selling 4-5 kits a week? If you price the kit where it is worth people buying it - $30-$50 you are going to make around $20 a pop a most. So $1000 a month if everything goes amazingly good. Boeing spends that much money lighting up the sign on the front of their office building.

They are not going to care if some hobbyist that loves their planes makes a couple bucks by helping out their fellow hobbyists to build planes.

Until you hit the point that you are advertising in magazines and selling $10,000 a month that they will start getting interested in you. And they will probably send a letter asking what is going on before you have to get worried.

In the meantime, you don't even have a flying model yet! Get building my brutha!

Originally Posted by Commander Clumsy

I'm guessing you weren't around in the sixties
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hawker_Siddeley_Harrier

Nope, a little before my time. Luckily things have advanced a little for us since then and now we get to enjoy it on a slightly smaller scale.

Originally Posted by SGTalon

...Build it, make it work, see if anyone actually is interested in giving you money for the kit, THEN worry about the legalities of selling the thing...

I think you are right. If someone wants to kit it then I'll let them give Boeing a call.

I'm Just thinking of selling plans, no kit. Send it off in an E-mail and I'm done. Not sure yet if I want to do something like a 1,000 Kickstarter to fund a prototype or offer proven plans yet. That way if not enough people fund the project then no one is out any $ and I don't have to release my latest code.

Originally Posted by RCvertt

I'm Just thinking of selling plans, no kit. Send it off in an E-mail and I'm done. Not sure yet if I want to do something like a 1,000 Kickstarter to fund a prototype or offer proven plans yet. That way if not enough people fund the project then no one is out any $ and I don't have to release my latest code.

In keeping with the spirit of the RCGroups Scratchbuilt Foamies section and as repayment for all of the amazing and awesome work that people have done and freely shared on here, All of my designs are posted with free plans.

I did the work to design build and test all my stuff already. I learned so much from the designs of people like JettSett, GPW, dz1sfb, tons of guys on here with their free plans. I am just following in their footsteps.

Originally Posted by SGTalon

In keeping with the spirit of the RCGroups Scratchbuilt Foamies section and as repayment for all of the amazing and awesome work that people have done and freely shared on here, All of my designs are posted with free plans.

I did the work to design build and test all my stuff already. I learned so much from the designs of people like JettSett, GPW, dz1sfb, tons of guys on here with their free plans. I am just following in their footsteps.

+1

I've been watching this thread from the start and have to echo the comment above. I honestly can't understand your concept. Not the plane, that I get, but what you are trying to achieve. It seems that you have an idea that you want to make money from. You need others to provide the funds and help you with the design and you are trying to do all this on a forum dedicated to people who like designing and building their own planes, sharing there work and ideas (mostly free) and developing the hobby. I don't have a problem with people trying to make money but it does seem a rather odd way of going about it and an equally odd place to try and raise funds.

I'm not having a go. I just don't get it and I'm guessing from the serious lack of interest in what should be a really cool project that there may well be many others that don't either.

TCF

SGTalon & Thechittyfather- I understand the concern and the desire to give plans away for free but I'm just not able to do that at the moment. I can't even make them yet without you guys helping me get parts. It'll get built regardless. It'll just take a lot longer on my own is all. Nothing wrong with that if people want to wait.

I don't see how 20$ or less breaks the bank if someone is willing and able to do it. I have no delusions about making a profit off this project. If by some miracle I got 25,000 in funding it still wouldn't cover the cost of the first three years I spent developing VTOL code. If people fund it for 20$, it would just help ease my cost and help me get the project out to the public a lot quicker. This project will cost me well over 1,000 by the time I am finished building several prototypes and driving to the flying field to test each one multiple times.

As for the spirit of RCgroups in giving back, I have already given three years of custom code and testing work away for absolutely free. Just my opinion, but I think it has helped a couple projects get in the air and progress faster than they would have other wise. All of the code I have contributed to other projects is still available for anyone to use, free of charge. Some projects have helped me as well to which I have posted my code in order to give back. If people have what I consider a basic understanding of the Arduino code language, then they are more than welcome to make their own Harrier-ish jets now without giving me a dime. Funding this project just gets the version I am building, in your hands a lot quicker for those that want it.

Pink isn't a bad color. If people prefer that over getting super inexpensive Harrier plans then that's cool with me

How about this... This poll will be to see if people think an online hobby shop should help this project.
For those that are skeptical about this project but want to see it built quickly or want to help but don't have the funds to help with an unproven concept, this poll is for you.

-Vote yes if you think an online hobby shop should help provide parts for this project, free of charge, since you would buy a kit or Ready to Fly version from them if it works.

-Vote no if you don't think any online hobby shops should help because you wouldn't buy it from anyone even if it works.


I like free stuff just as much as the next person so lets see if people are interested in having someone else pick up part of the tab for us. If I get enough yes votes then new code that is developed for this project would be released to everyone for free after it is built. If I don't get a couple hundred "yes" votes then there is no reason for me to be bugging online shops about this project. If I don't get enough yes votes then the project will continue at a snails pace, funded only by me and the code will be released when the project is done so that other people can build one as well.

Actual poll is in the above hyperlink in this message.

Ive Followed Vert in other thread long enough to know that he has contributed a ton more than almost all of us are capable of . between him and Cass theres been alot of coding going on .


Vert i may be in soon . Selling off some old junk that ive had sitting around for Years . ( 1.8litre Acura engine and a pile of custom parts ) I wont do anything with it any time soon and know someone who may want it , if it works out after i give the wife her share I should have a nice boost in my RC funds for this year ... Ive always wanted a phlatprinter