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Old Jan 05, 2013, 08:51 AM
Turn down for what?
rdwoebke's Avatar
United States, IN, Indianapolis
Joined Feb 2004
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Originally Posted by schrederman View Post
Well, having bever been to either the NATS or the WSM... I'm faced with a decision. I won't make it to both due to time/family constraints. But which one to go to...?
Well, lets try to do a decision analysis on this. You already have said you have some work problems with taking vacation the day before or after Independence day. So discounting that for the time being what do you like to fly? Do you still fly Houston Hawks and Legionairs? Or just Explorers? If you still fly the woodies then with the Nats you would have 2 days of RES/NOS, 2 days of Unlimited, and 2 days of F3J. I guess assuming that you could make either a 6 day event or a 3 day event. I think you have said you don't like to fly 2 Meter but what about F3K or Cross Country? If you liked either of those you could add an extra 2 days to the Nats too.

I have only been to the Masters as a spectator (and will probably come out to spectate again this year). But on the other hand the Masters is an awesome event. It seems a little different than any other event I have been to in the US. It seems to have a bit more international feel to it over the Nats. It might be the fact that it is a stand alone single model type event or that it is 3 days or that it has a cash prize. It is hard for me to say why since the Nats is also pretty big time but the Masters just seems to have an additional kicker of big time feel to it. Once again, maybe it is the cash prize aspect.

Here are some videos I took from the Masters 2012:

Dayrl Perkins and another pilot landing at 2012 Masters (0 min 25 sec)


Mike Smith 2012 Masters (1 min 38 sec)


If you haven't already done so, read the Nats News to get a good flavor of the Nats experience.

Here are some videos I took at the Nats (F3K):

Bruce F3K Nats 2012 (2 min 57 sec)


Craig Greening F3K Nats 2012 Muncie Indiana (1 min 22 sec)


I actually have quite a bit more Nats footage that I haven't got around to doing anything with yet. My hope with the videos is to give people an idea what a contest is like (obviously you are not in that group) who haven't been to a contest. But maybe the videos can also give a person a bit of flavor from the event to help make a decision.

Ryan
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Old Jan 07, 2013, 03:57 PM
Hot Dawg Glider Pilot
schrederman's Avatar
United States, TX, Weatherford
Joined Nov 2002
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Thanks, Ryan... I still like wood stuff a lot, and will be building a new fleet this winter... Probably gonna be the NATS this year, and WSM next year... we'll see...
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Old Jan 07, 2013, 04:06 PM
Turn down for what?
rdwoebke's Avatar
United States, IN, Indianapolis
Joined Feb 2004
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Jack,

One more thought you just kind of sparked. The Masters is an every other year thing. So maybe it might make sense to do the Masters in 2013 and then Nats in 2014.

I guess assuming that you can do trips in back to back years. I know that is a long trek.

Ryan
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Old Jan 08, 2013, 07:04 AM
Josh Glaab
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Joined Nov 2005
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Just a quick note here, but the staggered launches at the NATS Unlim are NOT man on man in the same way "J" is. Perhaps if the NATS groups were smaller (say 4 at a time) we could perhaps get everyone up within 30 seconds or less. 2+ minutes, which is typical of many NATS groups, is not man-on-man. True, there are drawbacks in "J", but that is man-on-man.
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Old Jan 08, 2013, 07:57 AM
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USA, IL, Wheeling
Joined Jan 2003
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When it takes 2+ minutes to launch a Nats flight group, it's because the pilots delay more than the the launch master. They are supposed to be ready when told to launch, not stand there, look around, ask their timer if ready and then step on the pedal as most do.

The only time I recall an exceedingly long time to launch was a NOS round in high winds ... by the time one person finished tapping his Sailaire to the top, the first launched was landing.
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Old Jan 08, 2013, 08:19 AM
Daryl Perkins's Avatar
United States, VA, Falls Church
Joined Mar 2007
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TK - I know you weren't there, but there was nothing man on man about the uber windy rounds at this last masters. Even at the masters, typical launch window was 1:30 to 2 min. Even in normal wind, still, like Josh mentions, not man on man. It works in J because not being ready to launch costs points, so everyone (somehow) seems to be ready at the horn. At the Nats, or the Masters, the launch nazi tells the pilot to launch... he taps the pedal... looks at this airplane.... taps the pedal... looks at his tranny.... pins the transmitter against his body and uses his left hand to hit some switch.... he looks around in the sky to see who's where and if they're going up.... taps up to the begin of launch tension cuz it has all gone away... looks back at his airplane and wiggles something.... looks back into the sky in the other direction to see if anyone is going up over there.... AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Did I mention???? AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh hhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Old Jan 08, 2013, 09:26 AM
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This has taken us a bit off topic... but if I was running the winch line... it would be... Winch 1 launch! 3 - 2 - 1 - Winch 2 launch! 3 - 2 - 1 - Winch 2 is a ZERO flight! Clear the winch! Winch 3 launch! 3 - 2 - 1- etc... etc... The winch nazi would only have to zero a couple of flights for this to be effective... and a model would be arcing skyward every 5 seconds or so... Just my thoughts... Yeah, the winch nazi is not going to be a well-liked individual in such incidents... but he will be respected if he sticks to his guns... and pilots that are prepared will not be having to say.... AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!

Back on topic... Is the wind usually a problem at the WSM? I know there is talk of moving the dates for TNT due to a history of crappy weather... i.e. it's always windy...
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Old Jan 08, 2013, 09:37 AM
Turn down for what?
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United States, IN, Indianapolis
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Originally Posted by schrederman View Post
Back on topic... Is the wind usually a problem at the WSM?
September in Indiana can be interesting. There are many September days in Indiana that are absolutely amazing lazy day flying conditions with big lift. But there seems to be a handful as well that are just absolutely challenging. Last year's Masters the Saturday was super windy. I wasn't at the Masters that day (the video I posted was from my visit on Friday) but I was outside with my daughters at a community event and I knew that the folks who were flying were very challenged.

Last year I flew on 11 different days in September but I fly on a lot of really bad weather days and I often am forced to not fly on a lot of very nice days due to work and family obligations. My notes show the weekend after the Masters last year was really nice weather. I think the Saturday of the Masters might have been the worst day of the month of September. I don't have data on days I don't fly so I of course could be wrong about that.

Ryan
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Old Jan 08, 2013, 09:47 AM
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Jack, you need to talk to Jim Thomas, cause that is the scenario that would be a perfect world. DP is right, some guys are excruciating watching them muddle around out there. But, as it stands, flying MOM the way that WSM and the Nats uses it is the best compromise scenario we have. We could launch multiples, and have in the finals, but many think that the normal crowd could not handle it.

Marc
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Old Jan 08, 2013, 01:35 PM
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Once again catering to the lowest common denominator. It is supposed to be the Masters they should be bale to handle a mass launch.. I used to think that launching the odd numbers then the evens would be a better choice but that just leads to crossed lines for the even guys And then a delay for the second launch group.. Man on Man implies sharing the same air. What Daryl is stating is true and common. Anyone would welcome flying in an evenly stacked contest. Everyone should launch at the same time without the benefit of comparing early launchers air. LJ
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Old Jan 08, 2013, 01:42 PM
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Yeah, like Marc said it can be painful running the flightline at times. We get all types from the skilled to the clueless, they all are entitled to participate. Short of p*&^ing off the contestants (our customers!), we push gently rather than with a red hot poker. I'd like to do the tough love thing, but our ED's have a kinder gentler philosophy, and I am obligated to follow their druthers.

JT
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Old Jan 08, 2013, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Jolly View Post
Once again catering to the lowest common denominator. It is supposed to be the Masters they should be bale to handle a mass launch.. I used to think that launching the odd numbers then the evens would be a better choice but that just leads to crossed lines for the even guys And then a delay for the second launch group.. Man on Man implies sharing the same air. What Daryl is stating is true and common. Anyone would welcome flying in an evenly stacked contest. Everyone should launch at the same time without the benefit of comparing early launchers air. LJ
Unfortunately the Masters is not restricted entry like the worlds or one of the dedicated J events. The contestants' skill sets in such open events just are not up to mass launching with the relatively tight spacing we are stuck with. We have periodically tried variants to speed up the launch sequence, but it has never really set in. I'd love to see a better way that does not induce utter chaos at the Nats.

We are restricted in winch spacing (about 20') by the main electrical trunk line. Please don't suggest getting a longer one unless you have the funds for ~250+' heavy guage, multiple outlet main trunk line. I don't see LSF spending money on one just to enable mass launches at the Nats.

JT
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Old Jan 08, 2013, 02:15 PM
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Jim,
I understand the challeges and logistics of the Masters Tornament as it is today.
However just accepting things as they are will not help things evolve in to a better contest.
Changing the time frame from September in Muncie to another date and another venue could yield huge benefits for a better contest.
Allowing contestants to bring their own winches with mono could add greatly to this event.
Just like ALES ask the competitors to provide their own launch gear.
We know there are better formats to run a prestigious event. Daryl's complaint is legitimate....It should be addressed and ways found to make things better, instead of telling him that we just have to live with it.
Trying to get things better here..really!!
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Old Jan 08, 2013, 02:39 PM
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LJ,
I was talking mostly about the Nats, not the Masters. I doubt mass launching will ever exist at the Nats as long as it is truly an open event, inclusive of all comers.

I'm not part of the Master's management, so have no dog in that fight. If a mass launch is the only truly fair test, then you should push to devolve the Masters to "just another J event". This seems to be what is being suggested.

Let's take this a step further. I will propose that even a mass launch event is not a truly level playing field. Take 10 pilots and 30' lanes. Now you have a 100 yd wide playing field. Anyone care to argue that the air at one end of the playing field is exactly the same as at the other end? How does this figure in, and why would this inequity be any more relevant than launching a minute earlier or later?

JT
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Old Jan 08, 2013, 03:44 PM
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Joined Nov 2002
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When I enter a contest, I am aware of the rules. I pay attention in the pilots meeting. If the CD says you have 3 seconds to release the model from when you are told to launch or scratch the flight, I'm going to be ready. The CD at TNT was very clear on his rules for the launch... It worked OK but could have been better. It was the first time I remember that contest being attempted as a man-on-man. For their first time, they did a great job. Granted, the mass launch is by far the most fair, but as stated above, nothing's perfect. As a CD... and I have been many times... I can't help it if a competitor gets pissed because I enforce the rules. I enforce them the same for everyone... no favorites... not even... ME! I assure you that I covered this in the pilot's meeting. If they scratch, it's their fault. Being prepared is a part of the competition. Not being prepared has consequenses. To me it's as simple as that.
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